Please turn on javascript in your browser to play chess.
Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Standard member sasquatch672
    Don't Like It Leave
    11 Dec '13 12:32
    I was surprised to not find a thread honoring (or acknowledging) Nelson Mandela on the first two pages. Much has been made of his legacy and the shape it would take. Outside of South Africa, he seems to be talked about in reverential tones. While the man's accomplishments are singular, what other aspects of his legacy are important to remember? What is te full and frank accounting of the man?

    I go on record as stating that the man is almost singlehandedly responsible for establishing the relative peace that exists in South Africa today.
  2. 11 Dec '13 12:42
    Nonsense.

    http://www.amren.com/features/2013/12/mandela-white-genocide-with-a-whimper/
  3. Standard member sasquatch672
    Don't Like It Leave
    11 Dec '13 13:07
    Originally posted by KilgoreTrout15
    Nonsense.

    http://www.amren.com/features/2013/12/mandela-white-genocide-with-a-whimper/
    The article makes a lot of good points. The history of South Africa is very complex. I was hoping to start a discussion, and that's what's happened. A few years ago I had three South Africans working for me, two of them women, and they certainly feared the violence in their home country.
  4. Subscriber Sleepyguy
    Reepy Rastardly Guy
    11 Dec '13 13:07 / 1 edit
    *face-palm*
  5. Standard member Bosse de Nage
    Zellulärer Automat
    11 Dec '13 13:16
    Originally posted by Sleepyguy
    *face-palm*
    Hoo-boy.
  6. 11 Dec '13 13:55
    Here's another journalist that isn't falling into the liberal media slobbering over Saint Mandela:

    http://livinginamadhouse.wordpress.com/2013/12/08/mandela-the-long-walk-to-a-myth/
  7. 11 Dec '13 21:00
    Originally posted by sasquatch672
    I was surprised to not find a thread honoring (or acknowledging) Nelson Mandela on the first two pages. Much has been made of his legacy and the shape it would take. Outside of South Africa, he seems to be talked about in reverential tones. While the man's accomplishments are singular, what other aspects of his legacy are important to remember? What ...[text shortened]... inglehandedly responsible for establishing the relative peace that exists in South Africa today.
    On 5 December 2013, Invigorate created the memorial thread,
    'Will the world ever have another icon such as Mandela?'
    Some writers (mainly Finnegan and I) wrote (brief) assessments of
    Nelson Mandela and the responses to his recent death.
  8. 11 Dec '13 21:11
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    On 5 December 2013, Invigorate created the memorial thread,
    'Will the world ever have another icon such as Mandela?'
    Some writers (mainly Finnegan and I) wrote (brief) assessments of
    Nelson Mandela and the responses to his recent death.
    My opinion, for what it's worth, is inconclusive and finds Mandela somewhat human, some angelic and some demonic.

    Two women, a septuagenarian from Detroit whose son now resides in Jo burg, and his wife a Zulu from Durban, both have rather negative views of Nelson Mandela, primarily based on his ditching of Winnie the moment he was released from jail, and replacing her with a new model.

    As a feminist, do you think Winnie Mandela gets a fair shake? I think she was more a figure in the struggle than was Nelson.
  9. 11 Dec '13 21:48 / 3 edits
    Originally posted by normbenign
    My opinion, for what it's worth, is inconclusive and finds Mandela somewhat human, some angelic and some demonic.

    Two women, a septuagenarian from Detroit whose son now resides in Jo burg, and his wife a Zulu from Durban, both have rather negative views of Nelson Mandela, primarily based on his ditching of Winnie the moment he was released from jail, a ...[text shortened]... nie Mandela gets a fair shake? I think
    she was more a figure in the struggle than was Nelson.
    It's wrong to presume that a feminist must blindly approve of everything
    done by any woman in public, political, or even personal life.

    "With our boxes of matches and our necklaces we shall liberate this country."
    --Winnie Mandela

    Evidently, Winnie Mandela endorsed the practice of 'necklacing', a brutal
    method of summary execution (slowing burning a person to death) that
    was employed against suspected black collaborators with apartheid.
    (Some of these suspected collaborators probably were innocent.)
    Like Archbishop Desmond Tutu (who once intervened to rescue an
    intended victim of 'necklacing' ), I was appalled by 'necklacing', and
    thus I strongly object to Winnie Mandela's endorsement of it.
    (Given that 'necklacing' was a method of killing black rather than white
    South Africans, would Normbenign even care about its brutality?)

    Given the fact that he was imprisoned for 27 years, Nelson Mandela
    should not be blamed for having been unable to take a more active role
    in the armed struggle against apartheid.

    I also note with disdain that some governments (e.g. US and Israel) and
    people who abhorred and opposed Nelson Mandela and the ANC during most
    of the long struggle against apartheid now like to pretend they always had
    completely supported Nelson Mandela from the beginning of that struggle.
    In fact, in the 1970s-80s there was a proxy war in southern Africa
    between the forces of, on one side, Communist states such as the USSR,
    GDR (East Germany), and Cuba and, on the other side, the USA, Israel,
    and apartheid South Africa. Some of Nelson Mandela's earliest and most
    devoted allies (comrades, if I may use that term) were Communists, not
    right-wing white Westerners. Cubans were actively fighting (and dying)
    against the SADF (apartheid South Africa's army) when the CIA was
    secretly passing along technology to help South Africa's arms industry.
  10. Standard member RBHILL
    Acts 13:48
    12 Dec '13 03:02
    Originally posted by sasquatch672
    I was surprised to not find a thread honoring (or acknowledging) Nelson Mandela on the first two pages. Much has been made of his legacy and the shape it would take. Outside of South Africa, he seems to be talked about in reverential tones. While the man's accomplishments are singular, what other aspects of his legacy are important to remember? What ...[text shortened]... inglehandedly responsible for establishing the relative peace that exists in South Africa today.
    Lol the dumb sign language man, haha.
  11. 12 Dec '13 11:43
    Originally posted by RBHILL
    Lol the dumb sign language man, haha.
    Sign language guy gonna get a necklace party.
  12. 13 Dec '13 23:09
    Originally posted by sasquatch672
    I was surprised to not find a thread honoring (or acknowledging) Nelson Mandela on the first two pages. Much has been made of his legacy and the shape it would take. Outside of South Africa, he seems to be talked about in reverential tones. While the man's accomplishments are singular, what other aspects of his legacy are important to remember? What ...[text shortened]... inglehandedly responsible for establishing the relative peace that exists in South Africa today.
    I was surprised as well, but too busy/feminine to initiate the thread myself. Certainly I agree that Nelson Mandela did a great deal of good for South Africa. He also became an activist and philanthropist for HIV/AIDS prevention, rural development and school construction. Beyond that, I don't know all that much about him.
  13. 13 Dec '13 23:14
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    It's wrong to presume that a feminist must blindly approve of everything
    done by any woman in public, political, or even personal life.


    Indeed. I'm a feminist and I despise women who collude with female genital mutilation, one of the worst human rights abuses on the planet, with all my heart and soul. I don't much like Benedict Arnold, either.
  14. 13 Dec '13 23:30 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by karnachz to sasquatch672
    I was surprised as well, but too busy/feminine to initiate the thread myself. Certainly I agree that Nelson Mandela did a great deal of good for South Africa. He also became an activist and philanthropist for HIV/AIDS prevention, rural development and school construction. Beyond that, I don't know all that much about him.
    I hope that Nelson Mandela's not remembered as a sanitized 'politically
    safe' icon of goodness. The real Nelson Mandela was more complex,
    more courageous, and widely perceived as more threatening (the
    US government officially long classified him as a 'terrorist' ).

    Nelson Mandela (who spent 27 years as a political prisoner) should be
    most remembered as a leader in the struggle against apartheid in South
    Africa, who both succeeded eventually in overcoming racist oppression
    and in achieving general reconciliation between the white and non-white
    peoples in South Africa. For most white South Africans, the transition to
    a post-apartheid society, in which they would share political power with
    the black majority yet still largely keep their privileged economic status,
    seemed close to a 'best case' scenario. But many black South Africans
    today seem disappointed that their living conditions have not improved
    nearly as much as they had hoped when apartheid came to an end.
  15. 13 Dec '13 23:43
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    I hope that Nelson Mandela's not remembered as a sanitized 'politically
    safe' icon of goodness. The real Nelson Mandela was more complex,
    more courageous, and widely perceived as more threatening (the
    US government officially long classified him as a 'terrorist' ).

    Nelson Mandela (who spent 27 years as a political prisoner) should be
    most remembere ...[text shortened]... ng conditions have not improved
    nearly as much as they had hoped when apartheid came to an end.
    "Political Prisoner" ?

    He headed an organization that was planting bombs in public places and killing people. THAT'S why he was sent to prison.

    That's not political, that's just plain terrorist murder.
    He and his wife Minnie would have been happy to "Necklace" you, your wife, your children, because you are white. (Necklacing was tying a tire around your head with your hands strapped to it with barbed wire and setting fire to it while they watched you die with your head in flames and being asphyxiated)
    And laughing while you died.