Please turn on javascript in your browser to play chess.
Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Standard member RBHILL
    Acts 13:48
    05 Jan '15 16:12
    http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6410746

    George Kavanagh via Getty Images
    Wearing A Hoodie In Oklahoma Could Soon Cost You A $500 Fine
    Igor Bobic
    The Huffington Post 01/03/15 04:02 PM ET
    Oklahoma residents are concerned that a proposed bill would make it a crime to wear a hooded sweatshirt, or hoodie, in public on many occasions, according to local news station

    The wearing of hoods or similar head coverings during the commission of a crime has been against state law since the 1920s, with the original intent of curbing violence perpetrated by the Ku Klux Klan. But the new proposal would also ban an individual from intentionally concealing "his or her identity in a public place by means of a robe, mask, or other disguise" even if he or she were not involved in a crime. Violation of the proposed law would constitute a misdemeanor, punishable by a fine up to $500.

    The bill's language includes exemptions for religious garments, weather protection, safety or medical purposes, parades, Halloween celebrations, masquerade parties, "minstrel troupes," circuses, sporting groups, mascots or "other amusements or dramatic shows." But several residents who spoke to KFOR expressed concern that the language was still overly broad and could be easily misconstrued to ban hooded sweatshirts on any occasion.

    “I think this is a violation of an individual’s right to chose what they want to wear as long as it doesn’t violate the realm of public decency and moral values, and I think this could be very problematic,” Oklahoma City attorney James Siderias said.

    “They might have personal issues for keeping them on; they might have a bad hair day or maybe they have cancer or they’re losing their hair. You just don’t know why,” Tracy Wehagen said.

    The bill's author, state Sen. Don Barrington (R), said that the goal is simply to help deter crime.

    “The intent of Senate Bill 13 is to make businesses and public places safer by ensuring that people cannot conceal their identities for the purpose of crime or harassment. ... Similar language has been in Oklahoma statutes for decades and numerous other states have similar laws in place," he said. "Oklahoma businesses want state leaders to be responsive to their safety concerns, and this is one way we can provide protection.”

    The fatal shooting of unarmed black teenager Trayvon Martin in Florida set off protests around the country in 2012, and protesters, including the NBA's LeBron James and even members of Congress, donned hoodies in reference to the clothing Martin was wearing at the time of his death. A hoodie also graced the cover of Time magazine.

    --------

    I like this law
  2. Standard member vivify
    rain
    05 Jan '15 16:15
    So if it's cold outside and I wear a hoodie, that should be a crime?
  3. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    05 Jan '15 16:18
    Originally posted by RBHILL
    http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6410746

    George Kavanagh via Getty Images
    Wearing A Hoodie In Oklahoma Could Soon Cost You A $500 Fine
    Igor Bobic
    The Huffington Post 01/03/15 04:02 PM ET
    Oklahoma residents are concerned that a proposed bill would make it a crime to wear a hooded sweatshirt, or hoodie, in public on many occasions, according to local news ...[text shortened]... me of his death. A hoodie also graced the cover of Time magazine.

    --------

    I like this law
    A hoodie doesn't conceal your identity.

    Laws banning masks in public are common. A hoodie is not a mask.

    Until I see a legal analysis that concludes that this would affect hoodies, to me, this is a non-story.
  4. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    It's only business
    05 Jan '15 16:29
    Originally posted by RBHILL
    http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6410746

    George Kavanagh via Getty Images
    Wearing A Hoodie In Oklahoma Could Soon Cost You A $500 Fine
    Igor Bobic
    The Huffington Post 01/03/15 04:02 PM ET
    Oklahoma residents are concerned that a proposed bill would make it a crime to wear a hooded sweatshirt, or hoodie, in public on many occasions, according to local news ...[text shortened]... me of his death. A hoodie also graced the cover of Time magazine.

    --------

    I like this law
    No more bikers wearing bandanas across their faces
  5. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    It's only business
    05 Jan '15 16:30
    Originally posted by sh76
    A hoodie doesn't conceal your identity.

    Laws banning masks in public are common. A hoodie is not a mask.

    Until I see a legal analysis that concludes that this would affect hoodies, to me, this is a non-story.
    The hood is used to hide the face like in Robbin' Hood
  6. 05 Jan '15 16:48
    Nice, a ban on changing your facial hair, getting tattoos on your face, changing your hair colour, etc. with a pinch of religious discrimination added. Great law.
  7. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    05 Jan '15 17:31
    Originally posted by sh76
    A hoodie doesn't conceal your identity.

    Laws banning masks in public are common. A hoodie is not a mask.

    Until I see a legal analysis that concludes that this would affect hoodies, to me, this is a non-story.
    B. To intentionally conceal his or her identity in a public
    place by means of a robe, mask, or other disguise

    http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/cf_pdf/2015-16%20INT/SB/SB13%20INT.PDF

    I don't think it applies to hoodies and there are numerous exceptions such as it probably wouldn't apply to burkas for instance.

    Nonetheless, I still think it should be found "void for vagueness" as it's very unclear as to what it actually bans.
  8. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    05 Jan '15 17:41
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    B. To intentionally conceal his or her identity in a public
    place by means of a robe, mask, or other disguise

    http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/cf_pdf/2015-16%20INT/SB/SB13%20INT.PDF

    I don't think it applies to hoodies and there are numerous exceptions such as it probably wouldn't apply to burkas for instance.

    Nonetheless, I still think it should be found "void for vagueness" as it's very unclear as to what it actually bans.
    I don't know. I think that something that conceals identity is a standard that can be reasonably applied so I'm not sure it's too vague.

    A hood can conceal identity, but only if the top extends so far beyond the head that it makes the person unrecognizable. As you say, I don't think it applies to hoodies as people generally wear them.
  9. Standard member RBHILL
    Acts 13:48
    05 Jan '15 18:34
    I personally don't like hoodies myself. I take them off. I like the rain if it is raining. I wear a hat or a Bennie.

    Hoodies have blind spots when crossing the street. Aren't some European laws the cars have the right of way? I wish it was that way in the USA. Pedestrians here have the right of way. I personally live as cars have the right of way when I am walking. If cars had the right of way less people would get hit.
  10. Subscriber Sleepyguy
    Reepy Rastardly Guy
    05 Jan '15 18:45
    Originally posted by RBHILL
    I personally don't like hoodies myself.
    Well then obviously they should be outlawed.
  11. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    06 Jan '15 02:12
    Originally posted by sh76
    I don't know. I think that something that conceals identity is a standard that can be reasonably applied so I'm not sure it's too vague.

    A hood can conceal identity, but only if the top extends so far beyond the head that it makes the person unrecognizable. As you say, I don't think it applies to hoodies as people generally wear them.
    Really? We identity other people by various means. Suppose I'm missing a finger on my hand and wear a glove concealing that fact; have I ran afoul of the law? Certainly such a feature would be included in a police report under "distinguishing marks and/or characteristics"? How about a distinctive tattoo on a part of the body usually exposed?

    You can come up with ad hoc reasoning excluding the two examples given, but there's nothing in the wording of the law that would do so. Therefore, I think it fails a "void for vagueness" standard; it fails to state explicitly and definitely what conduct is punishable.
  12. 06 Jan '15 02:19
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_face_covering
  13. 06 Jan '15 02:28
    Originally posted by RBHILL
    I personally don't like hoodies myself. I take them off. I like the rain if it is raining. I wear a hat or a Bennie.

    Hoodies have blind spots when crossing the street. Aren't some European laws the cars have the right of way? I wish it was that way in the USA. Pedestrians here have the right of way. I personally live as cars have the right of way when I am walking. If cars had the right of way less people would get hit.
    I regularly wear a hooded jacket during Michigan winters, and when it is really bitter cold like this week, I sometimes wear a mask. Unprotected skin is subject to frost bite in a very short time.

    The proposed law is another example of regulating legal behavior to satisfy the outcries of a few. When you thing of removing another person's freedom to choose, remember it will be you on the losing end next time.

    On ROW, stupid people walk in front of moving vehicles, and stupid drivers run people over. You want to outlaw stupidity?
  14. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    06 Jan '15 02:53
    Originally posted by normbenign
    I regularly wear a hooded jacket during Michigan winters, and when it is really bitter cold like this week, I sometimes wear a mask. Unprotected skin is subject to frost bite in a very short time.

    The proposed law is another example of regulating legal behavior to satisfy the outcries of a few. When you thing of removing another person's freedom to c ...[text shortened]... in front of moving vehicles, and stupid drivers run people over. You want to outlaw stupidity?
    The law does provide an exception for coverings "incidental to protection from the weather" but I agree with the rest of the post.
  15. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    06 Jan '15 04:04 / 3 edits
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Really? We identity other people by various means. Suppose I'm missing a finger on my hand and wear a glove concealing that fact; have I ran afoul of the law? Certainly such a feature would be included in a police report under "distinguishing marks and/or characteristics"? How about a distinctive tattoo on a part of the body usually exposed?

    You can c ...[text shortened]... for vagueness" standard; it fails to state explicitly and definitely what conduct is punishable.
    When most people use the phrase "conceals identity" they are referring to the face. That's more than just ad hoc reasoning.

    These sorts of statutes, from what I have heard, are fairly common.

    N.Y. PEN. LAW § 240.35:

    A person is guilty of loitering when he:

    ...

    4. Being masked or in any manner disguised by unusual or unnatural attire or facial alteration, loiters, remains or congregates in a public place with other persons so masked or disguised, or knowingly permits or aids persons so masked or disguised to congregate in a public place - See more at:

    http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/nycode/PEN/THREE/N/240/240.35

    "Disguised" seems fairly close to "conceals identity."