Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Zugzwang
    Joined
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    03 Sep '17 20:58
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/03/north-korea-nuclear-missiles-pyongyang-donald-trump

    "North Korea's latest nuclear test reflects failure of Trump's bellicose rhetoric"

    "Donald Trump responded to North Korea’s sixth nuclear test by turning on one of
    Washington’s closest allies in the region, South Korea, blaming it on Seoul’s policy of “appeasement”."
    ...
    "Trump’s response in a series of Sunday morning tweets was to lash out at China,
    saying North Korea had become a “great threat and embarrassment” to Beijing,
    but more strikingly at the South Korean government of Moon Jae-in.

    “South Korea is finding, as I have told them, that their talk of appeasement with
    North Korea will not work, they only understand one thing!” Trump tweeted.

    Moon, who was elected in May, has cautioned against threatening a
    pre-emptive attack against North Korea and insisted that South Korea,
    which would almost certainly bear the brunt of a response, would have
    to be consulted before major military action."

    "By distancing Washington from Seoul, they said, Trump was behaving
    as Kim Jong-un wanted. He had warned South Korea it would have to pay
    for using a US missile defence system (Thaad) and on the eve of the
    nuclear test, he was reported by the Washington Post to have been on
    the point of withdrawing from a five year old free trade agreement with Seoul."

    "“US North Korea policy is in tatters. The administration has not articulated
    clear goals, cabinet officials regularly issue statements that conflict with
    the president, and the administration has not appointed any of the necessary
    senior officials to handle the diplomatic morass,” said Mira Rapp-Hooper,
    a senior research scholar in the Paul Tsai China Centre at Yale Law School."

    US President Trump acted like he expected to bully the DPRK into submission.
    Now will he attempt to salve his wounded ego by finding a pretext to attack the DPRK?
  2. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    slatington, pa, usa
    Joined
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    03 Sep '17 21:19
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/03/north-korea-nuclear-missiles-pyongyang-donald-trump

    "North Korea's latest nuclear test reflects failure of Trump's bellicose rhetoric"

    "Donald Trump responded to North Korea’s sixth nuclear test by turning on one of
    Washington’s closest allies in the region, South Korea, blaming it on Seoul’s policy of ...[text shortened]... bmission.
    Now will he attempt to salve his wounded ego by finding a pretext to attack the DPRK?
    I don't think he really gives a crap about the South Korean people. He just wants a war. No matter the cost. I'm sure the Chinese will jump right in protecting those South Koreans on the side of the US, don't you think? They would welcome 5 million refugees with open arms right?
  3. Joined
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    03 Sep '17 21:24
    Typical racist rant.

    North Korea marching to war is North Korea's fault alone.
  4. Subscriberhuckleberryhound
    Devout Agnostic.
    DZ-015
    Joined
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    03 Sep '17 21:28
    Do you think that North Korea's missile program was on ice during the Obama administration? I get that there are a cohort of the US population who want to attribute everything negative to Trump, and i have no love of the man...but really? This everything is Trump's fault is verging on the farcical now.

    2009 - Failed orbit of the Kwangmyongsong-2 satellite aboard an Unha-2 carrier rocket (April 5, 2009)
    2009 North Korean missile test (July 4, 2009)
    2012 - Failed launch of the Kwangmyŏngsŏng-3 satellite aboard an Unha-3 carrier rocket (April 13, 2012)
    2012 - Successful launch of the Kwangmyŏngsŏng-3 Unit 2 satellite aboard a three stage rocket (December 12, 2012)[6]
    2013 North Korean missile tests (May 18–20, 2013 - part of 2013 Korean crisis)
    2014 North Korean missile tests (March 2014) including Nodong, success[10]
    2015- North Korea claims to launch a missile from a submarine (May 2015)[11][6]
    2016 - Successful launch of the Kwangmyŏngsŏng-4 satellite (February 7, 2016)
    2016 - Test of engine designed for an intercontinental ballistic missile (April 2016)[12]
    2016 - North Korea claims to launch a Pukkuksong-1[13] missile capable of striking the United States (August 2016).[14] The missile is a Submarine-launched ballistic missile.[14]
    2016 - Failed North Korean ballistic missile launch (October 15, 2016)- [15]
    2016 – Failed launch of an intermediate-range missile (October 19, 2016)[16]
  5. Joined
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    03 Sep '17 21:30
    The failure of US containment goes back at least as far as Clinton.
  6. Behind the scenes
    Joined
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    05 Sep '17 02:07
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/03/north-korea-nuclear-missiles-pyongyang-donald-trump

    "North Korea's latest nuclear test reflects failure of Trump's bellicose rhetoric"

    "Donald Trump responded to North Korea’s sixth nuclear test by turning on one of
    Washington’s closest allies in the region, South Korea, blaming it on Seoul’s policy of ...[text shortened]... bmission.
    Now will he attempt to salve his wounded ego by finding a pretext to attack the DPRK?
    US President Trump acted like he expected to bully the DPRK into submission.
    Now will he attempt to salve his wounded ego by finding a pretext to attack the DPRK?




    Donald Trump is more ignorant than he knows. His statements are those of a spoiled child. Duchess, on the other hand is a hate filled person who never misses an opportunity to portray all white males as "the enemy" Which is the greater evil?

    Love others as you would love yourself, judge others as you would judge yourself
    -Confucius
  7. Joined
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    05 Sep '17 02:161 edit
    The US helped create this beast by fighting North Korea in the first place and not finishing them off. However, China is the puppet master If China had not intervened in the war, the US would have taken out North Korea.

    Make no mistake, China will do nothing to stop North Korea because they are a buffer against the West. The question becomes, will they be used as an offensive weapon to help take out the US so that a direct conflict is avoided with them......at least at first.
  8. Standard membershavixmir
    Guppy poo
    Sewers of Holland
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    05 Sep '17 05:01
    I'm glad you all have such a firm grasp of history.
    Has the US, Russia, China and whoever else tested missiles the last 15 years?
    Look at the US rhetoric and the US's history of invading countries they don't like the last 50 years.
    Look at the US history of covertly influencing countries and propping up nasty regimes over the last 50 years.
    If you were North Korea... wouldn't you want nuclear bloody weapons?

    I read here someone saying that appeasement doesn't work. It doesn't?
    There's not been a war there since the 50's. That is working.
    What the hell do you think is going to happen if there is a war there? Do you have any idea of the scope of what that entails?
    Do you really and truly think a war there is going to end with anything less than millions of dead children?
    Is that what you want?

    Regimes come and go (like the US's financial empire is now on its last legs) and so will the North Korean regime. Without actively interfering (because that only ends in more blood shed and drama... look at South / Central America, the Middle East, Vietnam and every bloody where else the US has stuck their large, ugly noses in), one should facilitate them, softly nudging them towards open dialogue.
    Help them. Befriend them. Remain critical of the regime's choices.

    That's how the crisis is deflated. That's how, when the regime topples by itself; implodes, the new powers to be are cuddled with love and feel supported. That's how you support change in the long run.

    Trump's bizarre rhetoric of hell, fire, brimstone, pain and suffering (or whatever other deluded crap he spouts) is forcing an escalation.
    That is an escalation which will reinvigorate the US economy, make a lot of weapon manufacturers rich (friends of people like Trump) and allow the US to show off the full force of nuclear weapons.
    So, that is a realistic escalation. Don't bloody mistake it. It's something a lot of very nasty people want.

    Nasty people who don't care about millions of dead civilians.
    If there is a war there, the best-case scenario is the Northern part of South Korea (with Seoul and it's population of nearly 10 million) will be completely destroyed and every major hub in North Korea.

    If you think that's acceptable on any level, you're an FFing psychopath.
  9. Joined
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    05 Sep '17 12:324 edits
    It's the same old tune. Just have the UN pass failed resolution after failed resolution, only to send the US into war to do their dirty work, unless the US decides to go it alone.

    Wash, rinse, repeat.

    From what I hear South Korea is in the process of moving to Japan.

    The good part is everyone can blame Trump! 😵

    Doing the dirty work of globalists again.

    So what is the next "tyrant" globalists will target? We must have our one world order don't ya know.
  10. Zugzwang
    Joined
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    05 Sep '17 19:07
    Originally posted by @mchill
    US President Trump acted like he expected to bully the DPRK into submission.
    Now will he attempt to salve his wounded ego by finding a pretext to attack the DPRK?

    Donald Trump is more ignorant than he knows. His statements are those of a spoiled child. Duchess, on the other hand is a hate filled person who never misses an opportunity to portray all whit ...[text shortened]...

    Love others as you would love yourself, judge others as you would judge yourself
    -Confucius
    The lying racist troll Mchill (a former sympathizer with Donald Trump) keeps spewing his obsessive hatred.
  11. Zugzwang
    Joined
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    05 Sep '17 19:25
    Originally posted by @sonhouse
    I don't think he really gives a crap about the South Korean people. He just wants a war. No matter the cost. I'm sure the Chinese will jump right in protecting those South Koreans on the side of the US, don't you think? They would welcome 5 million refugees with open arms right?
    "I don't think he [Donald Trump] really gives a crap about the South Korean people.
    He just wants a war. No matter the cost."
    --Sonhouse

    US President Trump may be selfish and inhumane enough to seek a war of annihilation,
    which he would expect to boost his popularity among Americans who already demonize
    the North Koreans and worry about the South Koreans as threatening economic competitors.

    To paraphrase Donald Trump on building his wall against Mexico,
    "Let the South Koreans pay all the costs!"

    The North Korean people have long been completely dehumanized by racist propaganda in the USA.
    I suspect that the USA's launching a surprise nuclear first strike to kill everyone in the DPRK--to
    commit genocide against another non-white people--would be approved by many, if
    not most, Americans as long as few white Americans would be killed in retaliation.

    China already has a significant ethnic Korean minority, who tend to live on cordial terms
    with the (diverse) Han Chinese majority. While proud of their Korean heritage, the
    Chaoxianzu regard themselves as loyal to China rather than to the Republic of Korea.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koreans_in_China

    "The population of Koreans in China include millions of descendants of Korean immigrants
    with citizenship of the People's Republic of China, as well as smaller groups of South and
    North Korean expatriates, with a total of roughly 2.3 million people as of 2009,[1]
    making it the largest ethnic Korean population living outside the Korean Peninsula."

    "Chinese people of Korean descent are comfortable regarding themselves as part of the
    Chinese nation and see no contradiction between their Korean ethnicity and Chinese nationality.[34]
    However, this dual identity has come into conflict with the Korean ethnic nationalism of South Koreans.
    In a 2002 poll of 393 South Korean and Korean Chinese university students by Im Gyesun,
    86 percent of Korean Chinese answered that they would reject Korean citizenship and
    would support China in a soccer game between China and South Korea. South Koreans
    expressed frustration and confusion at the Chaoxianzu's conception of China, rather
    than Korea, as their joguk (Hangul: 조국; Hanja: 祖國, motherland).[3]

    Yet Korean cultural identity has been strengthened in China since the 1990s, and the
    Chaoxianzu are "at the forefront of insisting on the use of their own language in the education system."[35]
    Despite the Chaoxianzu's strong assertion of their cultural identity in recent years, the
    Chaoxianzu are relatively free of tensions with the majority Han Chinese and harbor no
    secessionist aspirations. Reasons that have been put forth for this harmony include the
    destitution of North Korea, a shared Confucianism, and a lack of a religious cleavage
    between the Koreans and the Han."
  12. Zugzwang
    Joined
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    05 Sep '17 19:30
    Originally posted by @shavixmir
    I'm glad you all have such a firm grasp of history.
    Has the US, Russia, China and whoever else tested missiles the last 15 years?
    Look at the US rhetoric and the US's history of invading countries they don't like the last 50 years.
    Look at the US history of covertly influencing countries and propping up nasty regimes over the last 50 years.
    If you ...[text shortened]... hub in North Korea.

    If you think that's acceptable on any level, you're an FFing psychopath.
    Notwithstanding its brutal regime, the DPRK has the right to defend itself against unprovoked aggression.

    "Nasty people who don't care about millions of dead civilians."
    --Shavixmir

    In general, Westerners care only about Western lives. To this day, not many Westerners object
    as much to the *much worse* Japanese war crimes against Asians as to those against Westerners.
  13. Zugzwang
    Joined
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    05 Sep '17 19:38
    Has the DPRK successfully tested, as it claims, a hydrogen bomb?

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/03/science/north-korea-bomb-test.html?mcubz=0

    "A Giant Nuclear Blast, but a Hydrogen Bomb? Too Soon to Say"

    "North Korea’s Program Is Probably at an Intermediate Phase of Development.
    The secret to achieving more destructive power is to increase the amount of thermonuclear
    fuel that an exploding atomic bomb can ignite. North Korea said that Sunday’s test
    was a hydrogen bomb, but analysts were skeptical of this claim.

    STAGE 1 Implosion Atomic Bomb
    uses conventional explosives to compress and ignite atomic fuel.
    STAGE 2 Boosted Atomic Bomb
    uses a bit of thermonuclear fuel inside the atomic core.
    STAGE 3 Layered Atomic Bomb
    uses more thermonuclear fuel outside the atomic core.
    STAGE 4 Hydrogen Bomb"
    uses lots of hydrogen fuel that the nearby atomic core ignites."
  14. Zugzwang
    Joined
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    05 Sep '17 19:50
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermonuclear_weapon

    It's not necessarily easy to proceed from a successful atomic bomb to a successful hydrogen bomb.
    France needed more than 8 1/2 years from its first successful atomic bomb test (13 February 1960)
    to its first successful hydrogen bomb test (24 August 1968).

    "France had great difficulty with its initial development of the Teller-Ulam design
    [of a hydrogen bomb] but later overcame these difficulties."

    In contrast, China was the fastest (32 months) at proceeding from its first atomic bomb
    test (16 October 1964) to its first hydrogen bomb test (17 June 1967).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Test_No._6

    "The time between the U.S.'s first atomic test and its first hydrogen bomb test was 86 months,
    for the USSR it was 75 months, for the UK 66 months and later for France, 105 months."

    Only the USA, USSR, UK, China, and France are known to have developed hydrogen bombs.
    India attempted to develop a hydrogen bomb, but there's dispute about whether it succeeded.
    It's unclear whether Israel (which everyone knows has atomic bombs) has a hydrogen bomb.
  15. Joined
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    07 Sep '17 15:57
    Originally posted by @eladar
    Typical racist rant.

    North Korea marching to war is North Korea's fault alone.
    Bullcrap!

    The root cause of the dispute with North Korea is the joint military drills the USA and SK have been doing for many years. NK is just responding to those "foolish actions" as they refer to them.

    All NK wants is a peace treaty and an end to the military drills. Technically we are both still at war, it has just been a really long cease fire. What NK wants is very reasonable. You have been brainwashed by propaganda.
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