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Debates Forum

  1. 15 Feb '15 21:02
    Islamic State releases video purporting to show beheading of 21 Egyptians in Libya.
    Ya think the ISIS group really wants the entire Arab world fighting them..? I hope they surround them like snakes, and kill them. The USA will send fighters now too, soldiers who should have never left, but for Obama's view of the situation.. in Sept 2013, he called ISIS a JV terrorist group, and claimed the situation in Yemen was under control. Never held back on my thoughts about Obama. A poor leader, very under qualified for the position..
    We can argue any of the above issues,,
  2. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    15 Feb '15 22:29 / 2 edits
    out of date source - deleted.
  3. 16 Feb '15 02:51
    Originally posted by finnegan
    out of date source - deleted.
    what part of this conversation leads you to believe that I care?
  4. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    16 Feb '15 17:22
    Originally posted by Hugh Glass
    Islamic State releases video purporting to show beheading of 21 Egyptians in Libya.
    Ya think the ISIS group really wants the entire Arab world fighting them..? I hope they surround them like snakes, and kill them. The USA will send fighters now too, soldiers who should have never left, but for Obama's view of the situation.. in Sept 2013, he called ISIS ...[text shortened]... . A poor leader, very under qualified for the position..
    We can argue any of the above issues,,
    Actually they kinda do want to fight all Muslim governments that don't accept the caliphate they have established. This is an excellent article explaining ISIS: http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/02/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

    Of course, the Egyptian government is a brutal military dictatorship that overthrew an elected government and has killed far more than 21 Egyptians. They are another group that is impossible to root for in the mess that is the Middle East.
  5. 17 Feb '15 03:25
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Actually they kinda do want to fight all Muslim governments that don't accept the caliphate they have established. This is an excellent article explaining ISIS: http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/02/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

    Of course, the Egyptian government is a brutal military dictatorship that overthrew an elected government and ...[text shortened]... ians. They are another group that is impossible to root for in the mess that is the Middle East.
    Egypt is not the only brutal Arab state,, from my vantage point, they all are.. but that is spilling over to other countries, and thus we have to put a stop to it,, and that may prove to be impossible.
    Thus we may see Crusades 2.0
  6. 17 Feb '15 06:08
    Originally posted by Hugh Glass
    Egypt is not the only brutal Arab state,, from my vantage point, they all are.. but that is spilling over to other countries, and thus we have to put a stop to it,, and that may prove to be impossible.
    Thus we may see Crusades 2.0
    Not sure who you mean by "we" but the optimal strategy might be to let it continue for a while.
  7. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    17 Feb '15 10:30
    Originally posted by Hugh Glass
    what part of this conversation leads you to believe that I care?
    Well this conversation has not progressed far enough to test your affections but it was you who took the trouble to address an entirely new thread to "The Irish" and that sort of indicated a sneaky interest in how I might respond. Anyhow, it is sweet of you to take time out to address me in this way. Just to be noticed is all I crave.
  8. Subscriber Sleepyguy
    Reepy Rastardly Guy
    17 Feb '15 16:37
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Actually they kinda do want to fight all Muslim governments that don't accept the caliphate they have established. This is an excellent article explaining ISIS: http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/02/what-isis-really-wants/384980/
    That is indeed a great article. Thanks for posting the link.
  9. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    17 Feb '15 20:24
    Originally posted by Sleepyguy
    That is indeed a great article. Thanks for posting the link.
    They are beyond doubt bat s**t crazy. But I still don't see it as the US' job to exterminate every group of crazies in the world esp. to benefit other groups who are also brutal and homicidal.
  10. 17 Feb '15 20:37 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Hugh Glass
    Islamic State releases video purporting to show beheading of 21 Egyptians in Libya.
    Ya think the ISIS group really wants the entire Arab world fighting them..? I hope they surround them like snakes, and kill them. The USA will send fighters now too, soldiers who should have never left, but for Obama's view of the situation.. in Sept 2013, he called ISIS ...[text shortened]... . A poor leader, very under qualified for the position..
    We can argue any of the above issues,,
    What about gaff prone George W Bush?

    You think that fool was any better?

    Give me a break
  11. 17 Feb '15 20:40
    Originally posted by Hugh Glass
    Islamic State releases video purporting to show beheading of 21 Egyptians in Libya.
    Ya think the ISIS group really wants the entire Arab world fighting them..? I hope they surround them like snakes, and kill them. The USA will send fighters now too, soldiers who should have never left, but for Obama's view of the situation.. in Sept 2013, he called ISIS ...[text shortened]... . A poor leader, very under qualified for the position..
    We can argue any of the above issues,,
    Who would you consider qualified for the post of president?
  12. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    17 Feb '15 20:54 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Sleepyguy
    That is indeed a great article. Thanks for posting the link.
    Yes I was also impressed. It is a lengthy article, but contains an awful lot of good analysis.

    It will appeal to the preconceptions and islamaphobic prejudices of many people reading it. They will be wrong because that is superficial and not what the writer is intending.

    In a nutshell, it seems that ISIS are working to anticipate and bring forwards the end days, in which context they welcome anticipated religious warfare and annihilation, which is of course quite different to what evangelical Christians are doing when they promote extremist forms of Zionism and welcome the anticipated religious warfare and annihilation, thinking they can bring forward the end days.

    It is a mistake to allege that such extreme fundamentalists (seeking a return to the most strict and literal reading of their respective scriptures) are not conforming to their respective faiths, in the way that Obama has said that ISIS are not true Muslims. But it is for Muslims to explain how Islam can be applied in a way that does not ignore current realities. If ISIS can debate whether the term "Rome" actually applies to Istanbul, they can debate what other transformations are required to avoid their ancient texts being rendered meaningless. In other words, like all fundamentalists, despite claiming to be pure in their return to original sources, those sources are unavoidably being interpreted in new ways in order to address current facts that differ from the past. The inevitable conflicts of current reality against historical purism will in time undermine the present appeal of ISIS, but that depends on the fight against ISIS being conducted in a way that makes then weaker, not stronger. America's track record is not promising here.

    I was interested to see the article make reference to the Treaty of Westphalia as the historical template for coming to terms with diversity and the impossibility of winning religious wars. Too much of a coincidence not to be a reference to Henry Kissinger.
  13. 17 Feb '15 21:17
    Originally posted by finnegan
    Yes I was also impressed. It is a lengthy article, but contains an awful lot of good analysis.

    It will appeal to the preconceptions and islamaphobic prejudices of many people reading it. They will be wrong because that is superficial and not what the writer is intending.

    In a nutshell, it seems that ISIS are working to anticipate and bring forward ...[text shortened]... of winning religious wars. Too much of a coincidence not to be a reference to Henry Kissinger.
    By the 13th Century, there were four independent realms (the concept of a nation state was not yet invented), which were all called "Roman": the (Eastern) Roman Empire, which would later reconquer Constantinople from the Latin Empire (or Imperium Romaniae), a Crusader state. To the east of this there was the Sultanate of Rum (Rome), a Muslim state in Anatolia, and then there was of course the Holy Roman Empire. Like the article suggests, "Rome" is most likely a reference to the (Eastern) Roman Empire at the time of early Islam, which included a large territory centered around Constantinople.
  14. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    17 Feb '15 21:37
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    By the 13th Century, there were four independent realms (the concept of a nation state was not yet invented), which were all called "Roman": the (Eastern) Roman Empire, which would later reconquer Constantinople from the Latin Empire (or Imperium Romaniae), a Crusader state. To the east of this there was the Sultanate of Rum (Rome), a Muslim state in An ...[text shortened]... ire at the time of early Islam, which included a large territory centered around Constantinople.
    I agree. It illustrates my point (which the article also mentions) that it is impossible to employ an ancient text in any meaningful way without entering into interpretations and transformations to retain at least a best guess as to its literal meaning and its intended significance. This is the case even for a text like the Koran or for some people the Bible, which is considered to be perfect and incapable of improvement. The result is that, pretty soon, the authority of the scripture / text becomes subordinate to the authority of its interpretor and the text becomes a tool for authority. When people nevertheless are determined to hold fast to the most literal reading possible the result, predictably, is something perverse and certainly - demonstrably - opposed to the intentions of the original. The fundamentalist is nearly always in a minority within their own faith community and for good reason but that may not prevent their securing a position of power.
  15. 18 Feb '15 01:03
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    They are beyond doubt bat s**t crazy. But I still don't see it as the US' job to exterminate every group of crazies in the world esp. to benefit other groups who are also brutal and homicidal.
    Excellent point made.