Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Standard membersh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
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    24 Feb '19 16:021 edit
    For those who still think it was Amazon's fault that the LIC campus plan fell apart, an official communication from the Governor's office staunchly disagrees.

    https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/open-letter-new-york-state-budget-director-robert-mujica-regarding-amazon

    From the statement:

    Progressive politics and policies have been the signature of Governor Cuomo's administration. No state in the nation has more progressive accomplishments, and being the most progressive state in the nation means having the most stringent and aggressive protections and policies in place. We are proud that our values create a stronger, healthier, fairer work environment, but we shouldn't kid ourselves about how they impact our competitiveness when businesses consider where to locate. We are also proud of the unprecedented investments we make in education, healthcare, infrastructure and housing, but in order to fund them, we need a sustained tax base.

    "As the political debate rages in this country, the Governor reminds us of the fact that 'to be a progressive, there must be progress.' The creation of opportunity and jobs is the engine that pulls the train and, as he also often says, 'the best social program is still a job.' Without a tax base we are not financially able to achieve the laudable goals we seek.

    "Make no mistake, at the end of the day we lost $27 billion, 25,000-40,000 jobs and a blow to our reputation of being 'open for business.' The union that opposed the project gained nothing and cost other union members 11,000 good, high-paying jobs. The local politicians that catered to the hyper-political opposition hurt their own government colleagues and the economic interest of every constituent in their district. The true local residents who actually supported the project and its benefits for their community are badly hurt. Nothing was gained and much was lost. This should never happen again.
  2. Subscriberno1marauder
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    24 Feb '19 16:41
    @sh76 said
    For those who still think it was Amazon's fault that the LIC campus plan fell apart, an official communication from the Governor's office staunchly disagrees.

    https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/open-letter-new-york-state-budget-director-robert-mujica-regarding-amazon

    From the statement:

    Progressive politics and policies have been the signature of Governor Cuomo's a ...[text shortened]... unity are badly hurt. Nothing was gained and much was lost. This should never happen again.
    We know Cuomo disagreed.

    Thanks for the update.
  3. Behind the scenes
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    24 Feb '19 19:02
    @no1marauder said
    We know Cuomo disagreed.

    Thanks for the update.
    For those who still think it was Amazon's fault that the LIC campus plan fell apart, an official communication from the Governor's office staunchly disagrees.


    I think there was plenty of blame to go around. Amazon was too greedy, The New York folks were too demanding, the politicians were too clueless. This happens a lot where big ego's are involved. Maybe Amazon should stay right where they are.
  4. Joined
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    24 Feb '19 19:29
    @sh76 said
    For those who still think it was Amazon's fault that the LIC campus plan fell apart, an official communication from the Governor's office staunchly disagrees.

    https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/open-letter-new-york-state-budget-director-robert-mujica-regarding-amazon

    From the statement:

    Progressive politics and policies have been the signature of Governor Cuomo's a ...[text shortened]... unity are badly hurt. Nothing was gained and much was lost. This should never happen again.
    well, as long as we realize that in a negotiation the right stance is to back out of a deal if you don't get 100% of what you demanded.

    the art of the deal and all that
  5. Joined
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    24 Feb '19 19:33
    wasn't cuomo who said that NY losing Amazon HQ was the greatest tragedy to ever happen to New York?

    He might be right, i don't know enough history to point to something bad that happened to NY. I think someone tried to build a mosque somewhere but i can't remember why people were mad about it.
  6. Standard membersh76
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    25 Feb '19 14:42
    @zahlanzi said
    wasn't cuomo who said that NY losing Amazon HQ was the greatest tragedy to ever happen to New York?

    He might be right, i don't know enough history to point to something bad that happened to NY. I think someone tried to build a mosque somewhere but i can't remember why people were mad about it.
    Yeah, but that was hyper-political nonsense.

    This isn't.

    New York will survive. I'm not worried about NY going bankrupt. But this was a missed opportunity for a boon that was blown for no really good reason.
  7. Standard membersh76
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    25 Feb '19 14:45
    @mchill said
    For those who still think it was Amazon's fault that the LIC campus plan fell apart, an official communication from the Governor's office staunchly disagrees.


    I think there was plenty of blame to go around. Amazon was too greedy, The New York folks were too demanding, the politicians were too clueless. This happens a lot where big ego's are involved. Maybe Amazon should stay right where they are.
    Amazon was "greedy" to get the best terms they could negotiate for. That's the way business operates. The terms, favorable though they were, still would have been a tremendous boon for NYC.
  8. SubscriberKingDavid403
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    25 Feb '19 15:02
    @sh76 said
    Yeah, but that was hyper-political nonsense.

    This isn't.

    New York will survive. I'm not worried about NY going bankrupt. But this was a missed opportunity for a boon that was blown for no really good reason.
    that was blown for no really good reason.
    Three billion dollars for nothing promised is a damn good reason to me.
  9. Subscriberno1marauder
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    25 Feb '19 17:05
    @sh76 said
    Amazon was "greedy" to get the best terms they could negotiate for. That's the way business operates. The terms, favorable though they were, still would have been a tremendous boon for NYC.
    BS. Amazon isn't entitled to massive tax breaks just because the Governor and Mayor want to give them such; any deal has to be approved by legislative bodies. Those bodies had legitimate questions and wanted to investigate further; once they announced they would do so, Amazon took their ball and ran home because they knew the details of the deal couldn't pass muster. A tax subsidized helipad, for Christ's sakes? The deal was oversold dependent on jobs Amazon wasn't required to provide and ignoring externalities that would have had adverse impacts on the economic system and quality of life of New Yorkers.

    And the whole idea of giving giant companies massive tax breaks when they provide comparatively few jobs while the small and middle sized businesses can't get such breaks because they lack the economic and political muscle of an Amazon and Bezos is crony capitalism at its worst. The government should not be enhancing the considerable market power of a company which is causing other companies to shut down. It is one thing to say that the others can't fairly compete and thus shouldn't survive because of market forces (though the failure of these business has far more negative effects than Amazon's rise has positive ones overall) and quite another for government to tip the scales in their favor by tax policy.
  10. Standard membersh76
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    25 Feb '19 18:42
    @no1marauder said
    BS. Amazon isn't entitled to massive tax breaks just because the Governor and Mayor want to give them such; any deal has to be approved by legislative bodies. Those bodies had legitimate questions and wanted to investigate further; once they announced they would do so, Amazon took their ball and ran home because they knew the details of the deal couldn't pass muster. A ta ...[text shortened]... itive ones overall) and quite another for government to tip the scales in their favor by tax policy.
    Amazon's having a NY office is not going to shut down any other business. They're not putting local mom-and-pop grocery stores out of business because of a campus in LIC. Their power is all online, which can be managed from anywhere. They wanted to come to NYC because of the talent pool here, not to consume local business that would otherwise go to local businesses.

    It's not the NYC politicians' job to worry about the macro effects of Amazon's market power over the world in general. Amazon is not going to have its market share hurt by the lack of an LIC campus. the NYC politicians' job is to look out for the people of NYC. I'd be furious if my local government were taking macroeconomic theory into account and sacrificing the interests of the local economy.

    This wasn't about a damned helipad and you know what perfectly well. From the get-go, the local politicians showed nothing but disdain for the deal and the plan and Amazon correctly decided it could do better elsewhere where not everything they tried to do promised to be WWIII.

    NYC's loss.
  11. Standard membersh76
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    25 Feb '19 18:45
    @kingdavid403 said
    that was blown for no really good reason.
    Three billion dollars for nothing promised is a damn good reason to me.
    Three billion is a pittance compared to the revenue it would have brought in.

    You're making the classic mistake of assuming the tax revenue is fixed. It's not. Building more creates a bigger tax base.
  12. Subscriberno1marauder
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    25 Feb '19 19:11
    @sh76 said
    Amazon's having a NY office is not going to shut down any other business. They're not putting local mom-and-pop grocery stores out of business because of a campus in LIC. Their power is all online, which can be managed from anywhere. They wanted to come to NYC because of the talent pool here, not to consume local business that would otherwise go to local businesses.

    It's not ...[text shortened]... could do better elsewhere where not everything they tried to do promised to be WWIII.

    NYC's loss.
    What a crock. Getting $3 billion in subsidies isn't going to enhance Amazon's competitive advantage? Try ECO 101.

    IF they were soooooooooooooooooo interested in NYC's "talent pool", how come the agreement contained no provision requiring hiring it? That "talent pool" is actually an excellent reason NOT to give Amazon outrageous subsidies; many other tech companies, like Facebook and Google, have made substantial hiring in NYC without any such subsidies. But Amazon refused to even commit to hiring locally and outside hires would have exacerbated the housing costs and infrastructure problems that Cuomo and you blithely ignore.

    Perhaps you think it's a great idea for local politicians to play the race to the bottom crony corporate game, but how many times need it have to be shown this is a losing proposition for both the localities and the nation as a whole? The local economy is not enhanced by favoring mega corporations over local businesses anyway.

    Screw Amazon and screw any other localities pandering to a super rich CEO and an giant corporation that doesn't want to pay taxes but wants handouts from the People. NYC will do just fine without them and perhaps the State and NYC leaders can concentrate on the real problems in the city rather than wanting to make a splash in the media (though interestingly both the NYT and WSJ editorial boards opposed the deal).
  13. SubscriberKingDavid403
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    25 Feb '19 20:242 edits
    @sh76 said
    Three billion is a pittance compared to the revenue it would have brought in.

    You're making the classic mistake of assuming the tax revenue is fixed. It's not. Building more creates a bigger tax base.
    Really?
    It's the same type of deal that recently happen in Wisconsin with Foxconn.
    https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a26088662/scott-walker-foxconn-wisconsin-jobs-billions/
    It will take about 25 years for Wisconsin to recover their losses. People are sick and tried of these billionaire robber barons. 'Take a hike Bozo, you're not ripping off our state billions with your BS maybe's that never pan out in the end." Go somewhere else, China maybe, and stay there with your supposed billions.
  14. Standard membersh76
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    25 Feb '19 21:49
    @no1marauder said
    What a crock. Getting $3 billion in subsidies isn't going to enhance Amazon's competitive advantage? Try ECO 101.

    IF they were soooooooooooooooooo interested in NYC's "talent pool", how come the agreement contained no provision requiring hiring it? That "talent pool" is actually an excellent reason NOT to give Amazon outrageous subsidies; many other tech companies, lik ...[text shortened]... a splash in the media (though interestingly both the NYT and WSJ editorial boards opposed the deal).
    ===Getting $3 billion in subsidies isn't going to enhance Amazon's competitive advantage?===

    BS. I never said that. Stop putting words in my mouth just so you can fire salvos at your ridiculous little strawman.

    NYC's talent pool is the only reason any big company would consider coming to this dysfunctional political environment. Yes, the talent pool should have given NY more leverage in negotiating with Amazon, though Amazon had plenty of leverage and competing offers too.

    I don't know whether the deal they struck was the best NY could possibly have done at the table, but it would have been a substantial net positive for the state and city and was coughed up for political, not practical, reasons.
  15. Standard membersh76
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    25 Feb '19 21:52
    @kingdavid403 said
    Really?
    It's the same type of deal that recently happen in Wisconsin with Foxconn.
    https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a26088662/scott-walker-foxconn-wisconsin-jobs-billions/
    It will take about 25 years for Wisconsin to recover their losses. People are sick and tried of these billionaire robber barons. 'Take a hike Bozo, you're not ripping off our sta ...[text shortened]... er pan out in the end." Go somewhere else, China maybe, and stay there with your supposed billions.
    Are Amazon's billions real or "supposed"?
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