Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Standard membervivify
    rain
    Joined
    08 Mar '11
    Moves
    9780
    27 Mar '19 04:061 edit
    I've heard it said that people who hide their racism are worse than openly racist people. The reason usually has to do with the idea that open racism is easier to deal with than hidden racism; and, maybe to a lesser extent, a belief that open racists are more honest than closeted ones.

    I don't know about this. My problem with openly racist people is that they believe there's nothing wrong with such beliefs. Closet racists are at least aware their beliefs are shameful and unacceptable.

    I think open racism only emboldens more people to be racist. I don't think it helps open some honest path to discussion that leads to more enlightened beliefs. Trump being so brazen with his racist beliefs has only made more bigots feel empowered; check the Chancellorsville white supremacist march, for example, and how KKK Grand Wizard David Duke thanked Trumped for being on their "side".

    I think respecting people for being honest about their racism is misguided. Imagine if that was applied to other forms of hate, like rape culture. Should we respect someone for "honestly" believing a woman's outfit choice is to blame for her attack?

    Thoughts?
  2. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
    Moves
    2120
    27 Mar '19 04:142 edits
    @vivify said
    I've heard it said that people who hide their racism are worse than openly racist people. The reason usually has to do with the idea that open racism is easier to deal with than hidden racism; and, maybe to a lesser extent, a belief that open racists are more honest than closeted ones.

    I don't know about this. My problem with openly racist people is that they believe the ...[text shortened]... someone for "honestly" believing a woman's outfit choice is to blame for her attack?

    Thoughts?
    First of all, I do NOT believe that the ONLY reason that many racists are not 'open'
    is that they believe that it's 'shameful AND unacceptable'. On the contrary, many
    racists realize that their beliefs may be 'unacceptable' to too many people, but
    they do NOT feel ashamed of them. Their disingenuousness is purely a tactical move.

    Does Vivify believe that it's morally better for someone to practice non-explicit
    racist discrimination and always lie about it (even though the persons being
    discriminated against usually can infer that the racist's lying)?

    Is better to keep a deeply racist structure and just stick a non-racist label upon it?
    I do NOT believe that racism can be extinguished simply by rebranding it.
  3. Standard membervivify
    rain
    Joined
    08 Mar '11
    Moves
    9780
    27 Mar '19 04:262 edits
    @duchess64 said
    First of all, I do NOT believe that the ONLY reason that many racists are not 'open'
    is that they believe that it's 'shameful AND unacceptable'. On the contrary, many
    racists realize that their beliefs may be 'unacceptable' to too many people, but
    they do NOT feel ashamed of them. Their disingenuousness is purely a tactical move.
    I didn't say closet racists have to feel ashamed to be closet racists. I said they're aware, despite their own feelings on the matter, that it's something to be ashamed of, even if they're not. A thief may feel no shame in stealing something, but is most certainly aware of the shame of being caught doing so. So too with racism.
  4. Standard memberwolfgang59
    Mr. Wolf
    at home
    Joined
    09 Jun '07
    Moves
    45641
    27 Mar '19 04:33
    @vivify said
    I've heard it said that people who hide their racism are worse than openly racist people. The reason usually has to do with the idea that open racism is easier to deal with than hidden racism; and, maybe to a lesser extent, a belief that open racists are more honest than closeted ones.

    I don't know about this. My problem with openly racist people is that they believe the ...[text shortened]... someone for "honestly" believing a woman's outfit choice is to blame for her attack?

    Thoughts?
    Both are despicable.
    To an extent proportional to their racism.
  5. Joined
    05 Nov '06
    Moves
    81346
    27 Mar '19 12:28
    did they ever catch those racists that beat up smollet?
  6. Joined
    02 Jan '06
    Moves
    10087
    27 Mar '19 18:271 edit
    @mott-the-hoople said
    did they ever catch those racists that beat up smollet?
    Smollet was a Putin spy.

    Make no mistake.

    Just more closet Putin spies.

    It's the vast right wing conspiracy Hillary spoke of.

    Yep, everyone is either a racist or Putin spy or both.

    Sad.
  7. SubscriberWOLFE63
    Tra il dire e il far
    C'e di mezzo il mar!
    Joined
    06 Nov '15
    Moves
    22130
    27 Mar '19 18:36
    @duchess64 said
    First of all, I do NOT believe that the ONLY reason that many racists are not 'open'
    is that they believe that it's 'shameful AND unacceptable'. On the contrary, many
    racists realize that their beliefs may be 'unacceptable' to too many people, but
    they do NOT feel ashamed of them. Their disingenuousness is purely a tactical move.

    Does Vivify believe that it's morall ...[text shortened]... non-racist label upon it?
    I do NOT believe that racism can be extinguished simply by rebranding it.
    Your posts indicate an intimate knowledge of "closet racism".

    Why is that?
  8. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
    Moves
    2120
    27 Mar '19 20:332 edits
    @vivify said
    I didn't say closet racists have to feel ashamed to be closet racists. I said they're aware, despite their own feelings on the matter, that it's something to be ashamed of, even if they're not. A thief may feel no shame in stealing something, but is most certainly aware of the shame of being caught doing so. So too with racism.
    It's wrong and misleading for Vivify to compare racism to theft.
    Theft is clearly illegal; holding or even expressing (free speech) racist beliefs is legal.

    In the USA, there are men (such as 'extremist' Mormons) who conceal their multiple wives.
    They do NOT feel ashamed of their polygamy. Indeed, they believe it's divinely blessed.
    They make an effort to conceal their polygamy on account of the law or some social stigma.
    Likewise, most racists today do something similar.

    When these 'covert' racists are put into a setting (such as an all-white private club)
    in which they fully free to express themselves, they do NOT act ashamed at all of their racism.
  9. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
    Moves
    2120
    27 Mar '19 20:36
    @wolfe63 said
    Your posts indicate an intimate knowledge of "closet racism".

    Why is that?
    As Jamie Utt (a white American man) pointed out to his fellow white people,
    non-white people tend to comprehend racism better than white people because
    non-white people have much more self-interest in analyzing racism in order to
    learn how it works and how it can be opposed.
  10. Standard membershavixmir
    Guppy poo
    Sewers of Holland
    Joined
    31 Jan '04
    Moves
    56305
    28 Mar '19 04:55
    @vivify said
    I've heard it said that people who hide their racism are worse than openly racist people. The reason usually has to do with the idea that open racism is easier to deal with than hidden racism; and, maybe to a lesser extent, a belief that open racists are more honest than closeted ones.

    I don't know about this. My problem with openly racist people is that they believe the ...[text shortened]... someone for "honestly" believing a woman's outfit choice is to blame for her attack?

    Thoughts?
    First you really need to define race.
    Then racism; is it that narrow or is it a term for all forms of discrimination?

    Then context, including: is the slur made to put people down or is it factual or is it comedic?

    And then the wider issue: what about non-spoken racism? A set of laws set up for common good, which still leads to targetted exclusion, or actions without words.

    Then I’ll participate.
  11. Standard membervivify
    rain
    Joined
    08 Mar '11
    Moves
    9780
    28 Mar '19 18:23
    @shavixmir said
    First you really need to define race.
    Then racism; is it that narrow or is it a term for all forms of discrimination?

    Then context, including: is the slur made to put people down or is it factual or is it comedic?

    And then the wider issue: what about non-spoken racism? A set of laws set up for common good, which still leads to targetted exclusion, or actions without words.

    Then I’ll participate.
    Replace "racist" with bigot. So that includes antisemites, islamaphobia, homophobia, etc.
  12. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
    Moves
    2120
    28 Mar '19 19:281 edit
    @vivify said
    Replace "racist" with bigot. So that includes antisemites, islamaphobia, homophobia, etc.
    (Vivify replied to Shaximir.)

    Vivify disregards a major difference between racism and homophobia.
    The target of prejudice tends to be much more visible in racism than in homophobia.
    A gay person usually can conceal one's sexual orientation and pass as straight.
    It's usually much harder, if not impossible, for a black or Asian to pass as white.
  13. Joined
    05 Nov '06
    Moves
    81346
    28 Mar '19 19:56
    @duchess64 said
    (Vivify replied to Shaximir.)

    Vivify disregards a major difference between racism and homophobia.
    The target of prejudice tends to be much more visible in racism than in homophobia.
    A gay person usually can conceal one's sexual orientation and pass as straight.
    It's usually much harder, if not impossible, for a black or Asian to pass as white.
    try passing as “ human”!
  14. Joined
    20 Oct '16
    Moves
    8803
    28 Mar '19 20:011 edit
    @duchess64 said
    (Vivify replied to Shaximir.)

    Vivify disregards a major difference between racism and homophobia.
    The target of prejudice tends to be much more visible in racism than in homophobia.
    A gay person usually can conceal one's sexual orientation and pass as straight.
    It's usually much harder, if not impossible, for a black or Asian to pass as white.
    A gay person usually can conceal one's sexual orientation and pass as straight.
    It's usually much harder, if not impossible, for a black or Asian to pass as white.


    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I perceive this as an implication that it somehow makes it easier.

    Please clarify.
  15. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
    Moves
    2120
    28 Mar '19 20:424 edits
    @ashiitaka said
    A gay person usually can conceal one's sexual orientation and pass as straight.
    It's usually much harder, if not impossible, for a black or Asian to pass as white.


    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I perceive this as an implication that it somehow makes it easier.

    Please clarify.
    I pointed out an important DIFFERENCE between racism and homophobia.
    A gay person usually (unless 'outed' ) has a choice about whether to 'come out' as gay.
    A black or Asian person usually hardly has any choice about concealing being non-white.

    That difference would make life easier for gay people in many, though not necessarily all, cases.
    How can one discriminate against a gay person when one does NOT even know that person's gay?

    I hope that Ash's NOT attempting to make any analogy between his status as an affluent
    gay white man in South Africa today and the status of black people under apartheid.
Back to Top