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Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. 13 Feb '18 18:01
    In The Netherlands a law was passed today whereby every resident is an organ donor by default rather than having to specify that you want to be a donor, as used to be the case.

    https://nltimes.nl/2018/02/13/dutch-residents-organ-donors-default-controversial-law-passes-senate

    Is this a good thing? Will all the Debates contributors have entirely predictable opinons about this, or will some of you surprise me?
  2. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    13 Feb '18 18:22
    Originally posted by @great-king-rat
    In The Netherlands a law was passed today whereby every resident is an organ donor by default rather than having to specify that you want to be a donor, as used to be the case.

    https://nltimes.nl/2018/02/13/dutch-residents-organ-donors-default-controversial-law-passes-senate

    Is this a good thing? Will all the Debates contributors have entirely predictable opinons about this, or will some of you surprise me?
    It's fine with me.

    I'd be outraged if they'd force people to be organ donors.

    But shifting the burden to check a box to opt out doesn't seem like an undue burden on people who want to opt out.

    Now, if they made it expensive or complex to opt out, that would be another matter. But I don't have a problem with assuming people who don't care enough to fill out one form should be defaulted to donors.
  3. 13 Feb '18 18:43
    Originally posted by @sh76
    It's fine with me.

    I'd be outraged if they'd force people to be organ donors.

    But shifting the burden to check a box to opt out doesn't seem like an undue burden on people who want to opt out.

    Now, if they made it expensive or complex to opt out, that would be another matter. But I don't have a problem with assuming people who don't care enough to fill out one form should be defaulted to donors.
    So you have no problem with voter ID requirement then?
  4. 13 Feb '18 18:50
    Originally posted by @great-king-rat
    In The Netherlands a law was passed today whereby every resident is an organ donor by default rather than having to specify that you want to be a donor, as used to be the case.

    https://nltimes.nl/2018/02/13/dutch-residents-organ-donors-default-controversial-law-passes-senate

    Is this a good thing? Will all the Debates contributors have entirely predictable opinons about this, or will some of you surprise me?
    Maybe they are trying to get in on this US game...

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-bodies-export-specialreport/special-report-u-s-body-brokers-supply-world-with-torsos-limbs-and-heads-idUSKBN1FS236?utm_source=34553&utm_medium=partner
  5. 13 Feb '18 20:06
    I don't think there are legitimate reasons to opt-out, so I think a forced opt-in would be a better solution. But I'm fine with opt-out as a compromise since that results in the vast majority of people not opting out anyway.
  6. 13 Feb '18 20:11
    Originally posted by @sh76
    It's fine with me.

    I'd be outraged if they'd force people to be organ donors.

    But shifting the burden to check a box to opt out doesn't seem like an undue burden on people who want to opt out.

    Now, if they made it expensive or complex to opt out, that would be another matter. But I don't have a problem with assuming people who don't care enough to fill out one form should be defaulted to donors.
    Color me surprised.

    Would've thought you would've not agreed to an opt-out law concerning such an important (for many people) subject.
  7. 13 Feb '18 20:24
    Originally posted by @kazetnagorra
    I don't think there are legitimate reasons to opt-out, so I think a forced opt-in would be a better solution. But I'm fine with opt-out as a compromise since that results in the vast majority of people not opting out anyway.
    "I don't think there are legitimate reasons to opt-out"

    So you would have no problem with a dental class using your parent's/child's head for demonstration purposes?
  8. 13 Feb '18 20:41
    Originally posted by @mott-the-hoople
    "I don't think there are legitimate reasons to opt-out"

    So you would have no problem with a dental class using your parent's/child's head for demonstration purposes?
    Relatives of the deceased have the deciding vote in case the person did not specify if he wanted to be a donor.
  9. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    13 Feb '18 21:51 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @great-king-rat
    Color me surprised.

    Would've thought you would've not agreed to an opt-out law concerning such an important (for many people) subject.
    Well, unlike many conservatives (though I'm a very moderate conservative), I don't have a problem with government per se. What I have a problem with is when government is heavy handed or thinks it can run most things better than its citizenry.

    Opt out requirements, if they're simple enough, don't strike me as heavy handed. Certainly, organ donations are good and certainly, government has an interest in securing organs to donate.

    Now, the government's interest in securing organs to donate doesn't outweigh each person's interest in bodily autonomy, but an opt out requirement doesn't seem like an undue burden on each person's interest in bodily autonomy. As such, I have no problem with it.
  10. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    13 Feb '18 21:53
    Originally posted by @kazetnagorra
    I don't think there are legitimate reasons to opt-out, so I think a forced opt-in would be a better solution. But I'm fine with opt-out as a compromise since that results in the vast majority of people not opting out anyway.
    === a forced opt-in would be a better solution ===

    Yeah.

    That's the mentality I have a problem with.

    You can think what you like about what there are and are not legitimate reasons for, but your opinion as to what's a legitimate reason and what's not doesn't outweigh someone else's bodily autonomy.
  11. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    13 Feb '18 21:54
    Originally posted by @mott-the-hoople
    So you have no problem with voter ID requirement then?
    Not per se, no.

    I haven't seen much evidence they're really necessary, though.
  12. 13 Feb '18 22:02
    It's just the state telling us what we should do. They tell us everything else, like what doctor to see, what kind of education we have, what kind of light bulb we will be using, etc.

    Soon we won't need any brain function at all other than just smiling and nodding yes.
  13. 13 Feb '18 22:21
    Originally posted by @sh76
    Well, unlike many conservatives (though I'm a very moderate conservative), I don't have a problem with government per se. What I have a problem with is when government is heavy handed or thinks it can run most things better than its citizenry.

    Opt out requirements, if they're simple enough, don't strike me as heavy handed. Certainly, organ donations are goo ...[text shortened]... n undue burden on each person's interest in bodily autonomy. As such, I have no problem with it.
    Agreed.
  14. Standard member shavixmir
    Guppy poo
    13 Feb '18 22:25
    Originally posted by @kazetnagorra
    I don't think there are legitimate reasons to opt-out, so I think a forced opt-in would be a better solution. But I'm fine with opt-out as a compromise since that results in the vast majority of people not opting out anyway.
    Ah... so the senate’s gone and legalised organ harvesting, eh?
    Good old D66... good for nothing party of right-wing scum.

    No good reason to oppose it?
    Well... why has one debate on the issue been avoided? At all costs, one may add...

    Bodies which have their organs harvested (brain dead) are proven to register pain (hormone and adrenaline levels). You can’t scream, but there’s a more than reasonable chance you feel them cutting your heart out of your body.

    Hence that the brain dead are often anetherized... even though they are “dead”.

    If yer a gonner, yer a gonner... but, the mere fact this debate is continually ignored is the reason I call the Dutch government organ harvesting fascists.

    And basically, anything D66 proposes should be immedietly flushed down the toilet and their politicians burned alive on the streets.

    The good thing now, is that we can keep them alive and give their organs to royal family supporters...
  15. 13 Feb '18 22:35
    Originally posted by @whodey
    It's just the state telling us what we should do. They tell us everything else, like what doctor to see, what kind of education we have, what kind of light bulb we will be using, etc.

    Soon we won't need any brain function at all other than just smiling and nodding yes.
    Color me unsurprised.