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  1. 14 Aug '14 22:41
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/12/gaza-palestinians-world-israel-collective-punishment

    "Out of the carnage of Gaza a new spirit: we are all Palestinians.
    The world has witnessed the daily brutality of Israel's collective punishment
    and our cause is now stronger."
    --Karma Nabulsi (She is a fellow in politics at the University of Oxford.)

    "On this bloody international battlefield over truth, where thousands of Palestinians
    now die, Israel has lost. It is in possession of the most powerful and entrenched
    lobby in America that terrorises its now abject political class--most recently
    frightening the senate into unanimously voting in favour of its current aggression.
    In Britain, the BBC (with its pro-Israeli bias) and a prime minster have shamed
    and revolted the citizens they serve. It has tireless advocates and apologists
    manning editorial desks and television producers' offices. It is ranked among
    the world's top military powers. Yet with all of this, it (Israel) has lost, and
    the Palestinian cause has been made that much stronger.
    ...
    It is, rather, a brutal colonial war waged on an imprisoned, blockaded, and
    besieged people (in Gaza) who do not care to live on their knees. These war
    crimes are what we Palestinians face whether we surrender or whether we stand.
    ...
    Nelson Mandela, who left prison without renouncing armed struggle,
    declared that South Africa would not be free until Palestine is free."
    --Karma Nabulsi

    "Our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians..."
    --Nelson Mandela (1997)
    (It's not completely clear to me that Nelson Mandela's usage of 'our freedom'
    was referring only to South Africa's people rather than to humanity in general.)
  2. 14 Aug '14 23:05 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/12/gaza-palestinians-world-israel-collective-punishment

    "Out of the carnage of Gaza a new spirit: we are all Palestinians.
    The world has witnessed the daily brutality of Israel's collective punishment
    and our cause is now stronger."
    --Karma Nabulsi (She is a fellow in politics at the University of Ox ...[text shortened]... 'our freedom'
    was referring only to South Africa's people rather than to humanity in general.)
    Israel must be wiped from the face of the Earth!

    But hey, I think you have a point about Europe. It is the resurrection of an old European hatred of Jews.
  3. Standard member wolfgang59
    Infidel
    15 Aug '14 00:00
    Originally posted by Eladar
    Israel must be wiped from the face of the Earth!

    But hey, I think you have a point about Europe. It is the resurrection of an old European hatred of Jews.
    Do not confuse Jews with the state of Israel.
  4. 15 Aug '14 02:14
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Do not confuse Jews with the state of Israel.
    So you want to see Israel wiped off the face of the earth?
  5. 15 Aug '14 02:20
    Originally posted by wolfgang59 to Eladar
    Do not confuse Jews with the state of Israel.
    Indeed, too many people already are confused about the state of Israel.
  6. 15 Aug '14 02:38
    Originally posted by Eladar
    Israel must be wiped from the face of the Earth!

    But hey, I think you have a point about Europe. It is the resurrection of an old European hatred of Jews.
    Now Eldar, just because Europe persecuted Jews for centuries with the climax of the Holocaust and their continued opposition to the Jews today in no way means that they have not changed.
  7. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    15 Aug '14 07:49 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Eladar
    So you want to see Israel wiped off the face of the earth?
    As long as supporters of the Israeli state insist that every Jew on the planet is a Zionist (false) and that any opponent of Zionism or the Israeli state is Anti Semitic (presumably including the large number of Jews - even within Israel - who oppose what the Israeli state and the IDF have been doing) then you will indeed find that anger at the IDF spills over into anger against (innocent) Jews around Europe and beyond.

    Zionism feed Anti-Semitism, just as extremism feeds off extremism and fundamentalism feeds off fundamentalism. And in your case, stupidity feeds off stupidity and ignorance feeds off ignorance.

    For the record, while the UN recognises Israel within (but not beyond) its approved 1967 borders, it is perfectly reasonable to oppose the Israeli state without that implying anything at all about the people. One could wish the state to disappear from the face of the earth to be replaced with a single state solution that embraces both Israelis and Palestinians in one, democratic and inclusive political entity. You are not asked to support this idea but just to recognize it is a coherent and reasonable one. It can be non-violent and definitely does not imply genocide. Only unthinking bigots like yourself are unable to consider this because you are the people supporting and promoting violence.

    Anyway, one could support the Israeli government and all of its violent, racist, expansionist policies without yet falling so low as to tolerate crimes against humanity such as have been perpetrated by the IDF in Gaza this year.
  8. Standard member CalJust
    It is what it is
    15 Aug '14 09:45
    Duchess, I would appreciate your comment on this analysis by a Jew.

    He seems to have covered all the options for Israel, with their intended and unintended consequences.

    What do you think? Which one would you pick?

    http://www.ichakadizes.com/the-middle-east-tragedy/?utm_source=The+Middle+East+Tragedy&utm_campaign=Ichak+Adizes+Blog+August+2014&utm_medium=email
  9. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    15 Aug '14 11:40
    Originally posted by CalJust
    Duchess, I would appreciate your comment on this analysis by a Jew.

    He seems to have covered all the options for Israel, with their intended and unintended consequences.

    What do you think? Which one would you pick?

    http://www.ichakadizes.com/the-middle-east-tragedy/?utm_source=The+Middle+East+Tragedy&utm_campaign=Ichak+Adizes+Blog+August+2014&utm_medium=email
    To respond to all of this piece would require a re-run of the entire debate over the past month. It is not necessary however.
    Let us pray. Only a prayer might work here. Logic has failed us.
    Logic has failed the author of this piece because it tries to make sense of material supplied as pro-Israeli propaganda and to frame the issues in ideological terms, without respect for the historical record.
    What did Hamas do? They destroyed them all. Israel left them untouched homes so they could move from their refugee tents. What did Hamas do? They dynamited them all.

    Why? They do not want peace. They are determined to destroy Israel. They say so in their published stated goal. And they walk their talk. I know it is difficult to imagine and to digest such fanaticism, but look at their behavior. You tell me: why would anyone adopt this stance, take these steps if they were not fanatics?
    Yes one possible explanation is that the Palestinians are fanatics to the last man, woman and child. Alternatively, you could investigate the explanations given by the Palestinians. As long as you are satisfied with the ideological answer "they are all fanatics" then you stop looking for the evidence. In any case, this line of propaganda continues to pretend that Hamas are the Palestinians and the Palestinians are Hamas. That is like saying the Likud are every Jew in the world and every Jew in the world supports Likud.

    It is tempting to persist in refuting the remaining content of your source but that, as I say, just takes us in a circle, covering ground already debated on this forum at some length.
  10. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    15 Aug '14 12:53 / 3 edits
    This contemporary account from the New York Times does not really support the assertion that houses and greenhouses were destroyed by Palestinian fanatics. Indeed, quite the reverse you will find if you have the patience to consider counter evidence.
    By STEVEN ERLANGER
    Published: July 15, 2005
    JERUSALEM, July 14 - About half the greenhouses in the Israeli settlements in Gaza have already been dismantled by their owners, who have given up waiting to see if the government was going to come up with extra payment as an inducement to leave them behind, say senior officials working on the coordination of this summer's Israeli pullout from Gaza.

    Under international pressure to save what is left for Palestinian economic development, Israeli and international officials are working on a plan to pay settlers to hand over the remaining greenhouses and a dairy to Palestinians, to preserve jobs and production. These businesses provide thousands of jobs to Gazans.

    Of the roughly 1,000 acres of agricultural land that were under greenhouses in the 21 Israeli settlements in Gaza, only 500 acres remain - creating significant doubts that the greenhouses could be handed over to the Palestinians as "a living business," the goal cited by the Israeli coordinator of the pullout, Eival Giladi.

    James Wolfensohn, the former head of the World Bank, who is representing the United States, Russia, the European Union and the United Nations in coordinating the economic aspects of the pullout, has been pressing Israeli officials to resolve the issue before it is too late.

    The cost of the proposed deal is being estimated at between $8 million and $10 million, the officials said. Earlier proposals to pay for the greenhouses had been held up in part because the Palestinians have objected to the settlers being paid extra compensation for leaving Gaza. For this reason, and because the laws of many donor countries and international institutions prevent giving aid to a relatively wealthy country like Israel, the money is being put together by foundations and wealthy individuals, the officials said.

    The officials who described these plans would speak only on the condition of anonymity because they are involved in difficult negotiations over the issue.

    In another indication of progress, the European Union has agreed to provide customs officials to replace Israelis at the Rafah crossing between Egypt and Gaza after the planned August pullout, said the European Union's foreign policy chief, Javier Solana. Israel had objected to a proposal from the World Bank to hire a private company to carry out customs inspections at Rafah, but may agree to agents responsible to the European Union.

    Israel is under considerable pressure to retain the single customs "envelope" with the West Bank and Gaza, so that goods can travel between the two Palestinian territories and through Israel as they do now.

    At the moment, officials say, Israel is willing to let others handle visas for people entering Gaza from Egypt, but still has security concerns.

    Negotiators say they expect that if agreement can be reached on the border issues, it would smooth the way for building a Gaza seaport and modernizing and refurbishing the Gaza airport. So far, Israel has agreed to allow the Palestinians to begin to build the seaport, which could take three years, but not to reopen the airport, although the Israeli prime minister, Ariel Sharon, has told the Palestinians to begin planning for it.

    "The Israelis are coming to understand that the logic of withdrawal from Gaza is that you withdraw or you don't," one official said. "To get the United Nations to certify that Gaza is no longer occupied, Israel has to get out of Gaza."

    Under international law, that includes removing the settlers' houses, including the rubble. Last month, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice reached an "agreement in principle" that the Israelis would destroy the houses and then pay the Palestinians to deal with the rubble, but the Israelis have refused to accept the rubble for disposal in Israel and the Palestinians have refused to accept it for disposal in Gaza. Now Israel is negotiating with Egypt to take the rubble - which would include dangerous materials like asbestos and fill at least 60,000 truckloads - and bury it in the Sinai Desert.

    Israel sought international funding for the cleanup, which will cost at least $30 million, provide employment for Palestinians and take a couple of months, but other countries have not been willing to absorb such a cost.

    One international official laughed and said: "An agreement in principle in this part of the world is the beginning of negotiations." There is no agreement yet on when the houses will be destroyed, or how, or how the asbestos will be treated or where the rubble will go, officials said....
    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/15/international/middleeast/15mideast.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

    This blog gives almost identical wording and also adds more detail about looting after the Israeli departure and other related issues. You may consider it a biased source but note that it does not alter the information in a way that might seem to distort the facts as reported by the NY Times.
    http://thehasbarabuster.blogspot.co.uk/2009/12/gaza-greenhouse-effect.html

    In general, fact researching does not tend to support the version of events promoted in Israeli propaganda. As a minimum it always emerges that things are complex and many sides, as you would expect of human affairs in a conflict zone. It is tiresome that so many people are prepared to rely on the Israeli propaganda machine for their information, either directly or through lazy secondary sources. It is tiresome that you are prepared to accept the lie that the Palestinians are all fanatics and self destructive lunatics. The technical terms for this type of thinking, you know, is racism.
  11. 15 Aug '14 16:15
    Originally posted by whodey
    Now Eldar, just because Europe persecuted Jews for centuries with the climax of the Holocaust and their continued opposition to the Jews today in no way means that they have not changed.
    I guess you are correct, it isn't a New Spirit at all!

    It is simply a hatred from old times.
  12. 15 Aug '14 16:17
    Originally posted by finnegan
    As long as supporters of the Israeli state insist that every Jew on the planet is a Zionist (false) and that any opponent of Zionism or the Israeli state is Anti Semitic (presumably including the large number of Jews - even within Israel - who oppose what the Israeli state and the IDF have been doing) then you will indeed find that anger at the IDF spills o ...[text shortened]... to tolerate crimes against humanity such as have been perpetrated by the IDF in Gaza this year.
    If you believe Israel should exist, then what you would do to make sure that Hamas no longer attacks Israel.

    Of course you must be able to guarantee that it would work. If it doesn't work what are Israel's other viable options?

    Remember, these actions must actually work, not simply a utopian view of how things should work.
  13. Standard member CalJust
    It is what it is
    15 Aug '14 17:42
    Originally posted by finnegan
    It is tempting to persist in refuting the remaining content of your source but that, as I say, just takes us in a circle, covering ground already debated on this forum at some length.
    Yes, this topic has been discussed every which way, and I am pretty sure that there is nobody that is totally free of bias.

    However, my question (addressed to Duchess, but thanks for your response) was just to see:
    (a) which of the alphabetical options enumerated by Adizes a pro-palestinian would suggest Israel adopts,
    (b) whether his "unintended consequences" in that particular case were reasonable, or
    (c) whether there was an alternative response for Israel which he failed to mention.

    In my (also admittedly biased) view, he pretty much covered all possibilities, hence his final words: we can only pray (to G-d, Allah, or whomever)
  14. Standard member RJHinds
    The Near Genius
    15 Aug '14 18:11 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/12/gaza-palestinians-world-israel-collective-punishment

    "Out of the carnage of Gaza a new spirit: we are all Palestinians.
    The world has witnessed the daily brutality of Israel's collective punishment
    and our cause is now stronger."
    --Karma Nabulsi (She is a fellow in politics at the University of Ox ...[text shortened]... 'our freedom'
    was referring only to South Africa's people rather than to humanity in general.)
    It looks like the Palestinians will never learn. They just use this opportunity to spread more of their propaganda against the Israelis. It looks like the same satanic spirit to me.
  15. 15 Aug '14 18:33 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Finnegan to Eladar
    As long as supporters of the Israeli state insist that every Jew on the planet is a Zionist (false) and that any opponent of Zionism or the Israeli state is Anti Semitic (presumably including the large number of Jews - even within Israel - who oppose what the Israeli state and the IDF have been doing) then you will indeed find that anger at the ID ...[text shortened]... to tolerate crimes against humanity such as have been perpetrated by the IDF in Gaza this year.
    Of course, Eladar, who has abysmal 'reading comprehension' and is extremely
    biased in favour of Israel, has jumped to the absurd conclusion that the article
    that I cited was somehow about 'wiping Israel from the face of the Earth.'
    On the contrary, Karma Nabulsi wrote or implied nothing about that at all.
    Her article was about how the Palestinians have gained more international
    support and sympathy from diverse peoples, if not their governments.