Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Standard memberfinnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
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    05 Jul '17 11:56
    http://www.ameu.org/Current-Issue/Current-Issue/2017-Volume-50/Marwan-Barghouti-and-the-Battle-of-the-Empty-Stoma.aspx

    Since his jailing in 2002, Barghouti has been repeatedly described as the Palestinians’ Nelson Mandela, the black African National Congress leader who led the long and ultimately successful struggle against South Africa’s apartheid regime. It is a comparison he has been understandably happy to cultivate in a Palestinian national movement that is, at present, desperately short of icons.

    In his New York Times article, he called the hunger strike part of the Palestinians’ “long walk to freedom,” the title of Mandela’s autobiography. He also noted that the International Campaign to Free Marwan Barghouti – backed by eight Nobel peace laureates, including former U.S. president Jimmy Carter and South Africa’s Archbishop Desmond Tutu – was launched four years ago from Mandela’s former cell on Robben Island. His wife Fadwa, a lawyer, has been a pivotal figure in the campaign.
  2. Behind the scenes
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    05 Jul '17 13:205 edits
    Originally posted by finnegan
    http://www.ameu.org/Current-Issue/Current-Issue/2017-Volume-50/Marwan-Barghouti-and-the-Battle-of-the-Empty-Stoma.aspx

    Since his jailing in 2002, Barghouti has been repeatedly described as the Palestinians’ Nelson Mandela, the black African National Congress leader who led the long and ultimately successful struggle against South Africa’s aparthei ...[text shortened]... l on Robben Island. His wife Fadwa, a lawyer, has been a pivotal figure in the campaign.
    I am genuinely sorry about the plight of the Palestinians. It's clear to me they have not been treated fairly (are you listening Duchess?) A Palestinian homeland with clearly defined boundaries would help the situation, but I can't see Israel agreeing to that. I still don't understand why the Saudi royal family, who are worth trillions, cannot at least send some medical, educational or financial aid to the Palestinians to ease their suffering, it wouldn't solve the entire problem, but it would help. The Saudi's are much closer to this situation than most, but seem like a pretty uncaring group.
  3. Cape Town
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    05 Jul '17 13:30
    Originally posted by mchill
    The Saudi's are much closer to this situation than most, but seem like a pretty uncaring group.
    Yes, the Saudi's are a very uncaring group and in large part responsible for many of the conflicts in the middle east. But the US is guilty of both charges too.
  4. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    slatington, pa, usa
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    05 Jul '17 14:38
    Originally posted by mchill
    I am genuinely sorry about the plight of the Palestinians. It's clear to me they have not been treated fairly (are you listening Duchess?) A Palestinian homeland with clearly defined boundaries would help the situation, but I can't see Israel agreeing to that. I still don't understand why the Saudi royal family, who are worth trillions, cannot at least send s ...[text shortened]... The Saudi's are much closer to this situation than most, but seem like a pretty uncaring group.
    Palestinians are treated much like blacks in the USA and that almost anywhere in the Arab world. They are considered trash and was like that in antiquity and is like that today. Jordan is a big country and could give the Palestinians ten times the area they now have in Gaza and not even feel it. They won't because they think Palestinians are trash. Same with Syria, Lebanon, and all the rest.
  5. Standard membersh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
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    05 Jul '17 18:551 edit
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Palestinians are treated much like blacks in the USA and that almost anywhere in the Arab world. They are considered trash and was like that in antiquity and is like that today. Jordan is a big country and could give the Palestinians ten times the area they now have in Gaza and not even feel it. They won't because they think Palestinians are trash. Same with Syria, Lebanon, and all the rest.
    Actually, ethnic Palestinians are a majority in Jordan, which is the main reason why the ethnic minority Hashemite rulers don't want more Palestinians in their country.
  6. Zugzwang
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    05 Jul '17 19:591 edit
    Originally posted by mchill to Finnegan
    I am genuinely sorry about the plight of the Palestinians. It's clear to me they have not been treated fairly (are you listening Duchess?) A Palestinian homeland with clearly defined boundaries would help the situation, but I can't see Israel agreeing to that. I still don't understand why the Saudi royal family, who are worth trillions, cannot at ...[text shortened]... The Saudi's are much closer to this situation than most, but seem like a pretty uncaring group.
    So Mchll wonders why Saudi Arabia does not do more to help the Palestinians.

    First of all, Mchill apparently underrates the great diversity and deep divisions among the Arabs.
    As I already have pointed out, Arabic itself is more like a family of languages than a single language,
    with native speakers of one dialect often struggling to comprehend native speakers of other dialects.
    The Arab states can hardly agree on any issue, including supporting the Palestinians against Israel.
    (Reportedly, Morocco has secretly bought military equipment from Israel.)

    There are several reasons why Saudi Arabia does not offer more aid to the Palestinians.

    1) Israel (if not also its Western supporters) was originally responsible for creating the problems
    of Palestinian refugees, so Israel--not Arab states--should be held responsible for 'compensating' them.

    2) The more aid that Arab states give to Palestinians under Israel's military occupation to
    improve their lives, the easier it makes it for Israel to boast of its 'benevolent occupation'.
    "The Palestinians are not suffering that much!", Israel would claim. Israeli propaganda
    likes to claim that the Palestinians are better off under its occupation than some Arabs
    are in some other situations (such as the bloody civil wars in Syria or Yemen).

    3) Israel would demand complete control over how all (hypothetical) Saudi aid to the
    Palestinians under its occupation would be distributed or used. Israel's typically harsh
    conditions would likely be unacceptable to the Palestinians as well as to Saudi Arabia.

    4) Saudi Arabia gives aid chiefly *not* out of humanitarian concern but in order to promote its Islamic brand of Wahhabism.
    But very few Palestinians (including Hamas members) seem inclined toward Wahhabism.
    The Palestinians are generally less reactionary than the Saudis toward the roles of women.
    And Hamas's chief foreign patrons have been Iran and Qatar, whom Saudi Arabia regards as enemies.
    The main Palestinian political movements (whether Fatah or Hamas) never have been close to the House of Saud.

    5) What could Saudi Arabia hope to gain by offering more aid to the Palestinians?
    Nothing that it regards as worthwhile. Even if the Palestinians accept that aid, they will not
    convert out of gratitude--nor should they--to Wahhabism and become a Saudi puppet.
    And Saudi Arabia does not wish to risk 'ruffling the feathers' of Israel's patron, the USA.

    6) The last Saudi king, Faisal (who sponsored the Arab oil embargo in the 1973 war),
    who was perceived as more pro-Palestinian than usual, was assassinated in 1975.
    It's a rather common belief (though I know of no proof) among Arabs (I have heard Arab
    students discussing it with a British journalist who wrote a biography of Arafat) that
    King Faisal's allegedly mentally ill assassin had been manipulated by Israel into killing him.
    In any case, Saudi Arabia's leaders seem wary of appearing too pro-Palestinian.

    As a realistic analyst, I see no reason in the foreseeable future that Saudi Arabia would
    offer more aid to the Palestinians. At this time, Saudi Arabia's determined to dominate
    the Arabian Peninsula, fighting a kind of 'holy war' against Shia-dominated Iran.
    Some analysts even speak of a secret alliance between Saudi Arabia and Israel against Iran.
  7. Zugzwang
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    05 Jul '17 20:071 edit
    Originally posted by sh76 to Sonhouse
    Actually, ethnic Palestinians are a majority in Jordan, which is the main reason why the ethnic minority Hashemite rulers don't want more Palestinians in their country.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians_in_Jordan

    "In Jordan, there is no official census data for how many inhabitants are Palestinians and
    it rather depends on the definition of who is a Palestinian.[3][4] In 2008, Minority Rights
    Group International estimated that about 3 million residing in Jordan have Palestinian origin.[4]
    Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics put their number at 3.24 million in 2009.[5]
    There are nearly 2.1 million registered Palestinian refugees in Jordan as of 2014.
    Around 370,000 live in ten refugee camps, with the biggest one being Baqa'a refugee camp with
    over 104,000 residents, followed by Amman New Camp (Wihdat) with over 51,500 residents."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September

    "The civil war determined whether Jordan would be ruled by the Palestine Liberation Organisation
    or the Hashemite monarchy.[6] The war resulted in the deaths of thousands of people,
    the vast majority Palestinian.[3] Armed conflict ended with the expulsion of the PLO leadership
    and thousands of Palestinian fighters to Lebanon."

    During the bitter war of Black September, Salah Ta'amari, a Palestinian leader in Fatah
    (who had fought in the Battle of Karameh) got married to Jordan's Princess Dina, who
    was King Hussein's first wife and had been Queen of Jordan.
  8. Zugzwang
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    05 Jul '17 20:221 edit
    Originally posted by sonhouse to Mchill
    Palestinians are treated much like blacks in the USA and that almost anywhere in the Arab world. They are considered trash and was like that in antiquity and is like that today. Jordan is a big country and could give the Palestinians ten times the area they now have in Gaza and not even feel it. They won't because they think Palestinians are trash. Same with Syria, Lebanon, and all the rest.
    In fact, the Palestinians are a disproportionately well-educated and often economically
    successful minority in many Arab societies (such as the Gulf states), even though they
    lack rights of citizenship and political representation there and tend to encounter serous
    legal discrimination in the kinds of work that their hosts permit them to do. In general,
    Arab societies don't want Palestinian refugees to take good jobs ahead of their own citizens.

    Palestinians are disproportionately the doctors, lawyers, or engineers in many Arab societies.
    Given that they cannot expect to inherit wealth through oil, Palestinians have a reputation
    for studying and working harder than most citizens of oil-rich Arab states, who tend to
    resent their dependence upon the professional services provided by Palestinian 'guests'.
    After Kuwait was liberated from Iraq, Kuwait's regime punished its entire Palestinian minority
    (which it always had treated at best as 'second class non-citizens' ) on account of reported
    Palestinian sympathy for Saddam Hussein.

    While it may be true that I tend to meet disproportionately well-educated people, I have been
    impressed by the general education and intelligence of many Palestinians whom I have met.

    Sometimes the Palestinians have been called (irony alert!) 'the Jews of the Arab world',
    which alludes both to their successes as a minority and to the discrimination against them.
  9. Zugzwang
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    06 Jul '17 23:13
    Originally posted by mchill
    I am genuinely sorry about the plight of the Palestinians. It's clear to me they have not been treated fairly (are you listening Duchess?) A Palestinian homeland with clearly defined boundaries would help the situation, but I can't see Israel agreeing to that. I still don't understand why the Saudi royal family, who are worth trillions, cannot at least send s ...[text shortened]... The Saudi's are much closer to this situation than most, but seem like a pretty uncaring group.
    "...but I can't see Israel agreeing to that [a Palestinian homeland]."
    --Mchill

    Americans typically like to give Israel absolute 'veto power' over the fate of the Palestinians.
    Shouldn't the Americans who profess sympathy for the Palestinians make an effort to
    reduce or end the lavish military and economic aid that USA gives to Israel every year?

    I regard the House of Saud as far from admirable in many ways. But it's a distraction
    helpful to Israel to condemn Arab states (including Saudi Arabia) rather than Israel itself
    for the plight of the Palestinians.

    This thread reminds me of how ignorant and misinformed most Westerners are about
    the Arab world and how reluctant they are to make any strong direct criticisms of Israel.
  10. Behind the scenes
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    09 Jul '17 02:021 edit
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    "...but I can't see Israel agreeing to that [a Palestinian homeland]."
    --Mchill

    Americans typically like to give Israel absolute 'veto power' over the fate of the Palestinians.
    Shouldn't the Americans who profess sympathy for the Palestinians make an effort to
    reduce or end the lavish military and economic aid that USA gives to Israel every year?
    ...[text shortened]... about
    the Arab world and how reluctant they are to make any strong direct criticisms of Israel.
    I don't think this is totally accurate. While many American's feel this way, there are also many (such as myself) who do not. I think Israel has been given preferential treatment for too long, and should be treated the same as it's Arab neighbors, in addition, I consider it an over simplification on your part to label an entire nation of 300 million+ American's as "misinformed"
  11. Joined
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    09 Jul '17 02:10
    Is firing rockets inti Israel considered a human right?
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    09 Jul '17 02:22
    Originally posted by Eladar
    Is firing rockets inti Israel considered a human right?
    Well in order to do it you have to have the right to do it.
  13. Zugzwang
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    09 Jul '17 20:271 edit
    Originally posted by mchill
    I don't think this is totally accurate. While many American's feel this way, there are also many (such as myself) who do not. I think Israel has been given preferential treatment for too long, and should be treated the same as it's Arab neighbors, in addition, I consider it an over simplification on your part to label an entire nation of 300 million+ American's as "misinformed"
    The lying troll Mchill puts more words into my mouth, setting up another 'strawman'.

    "I consider it an over simplification on your part to label an entire nation of 300 million+ American's as "misinformed"."
    --Mchill

    I never wrote what the (US flag-waving) Mchill wrongly claims that I did.

    "This thread reminds me of how ignorant and misinformed *most Westerners* are about the Arab world..."
    --Duchess64

    'Most Westerners' (what I wrote) does not equate to 'all Americans'.

    Most Americans accept what the mainstream US media (which has an extreme pro-Israeli bias)
    says about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and that includes many pro-Israeli myths or lies.
    I know an Israeli Jewish academic (who's very critical of Israel's government) who went
    on a lecture tour of the USA, and he found it hard to contain his amazement at how easily
    and thoroughly most Americans have been 'brainwashed' by ludicrous pro-Israeli propaganda.
  14. Zugzwang
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    14 Jul '17 01:323 edits
    Israel continues with its everyday racist campaign of wrecking the Palestinian people's lives.

    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/07/living-conditions-worsen-10-year-gaza-siege-170712045047448.html

    "Gaza conditions 'unlivable' 10 years into siege: UN
    Report says threshold of 'unlivability' passed with decreasing electricity supply and 60 percent youth unemployment."

    "A report by the United Nations says living conditions in the Gaza Strip have worsened
    in the 10 years since the territory was blockaded by Israel.

    The report, which was published on Tuesday and titled "Gaza - 10 years later",
    says that key indicators identified in an earlier 2012 UN report, such as declining
    incomes, healthcare, education and electricity have deteriorated yet further.

    The UN said that real GDP per capita in Gaza has decreased while the provision of
    urgently needed health services has continued to decline.

    The report also finds that Gaza's only water source is predicted to be
    "irreversibly-depleted" by 2020, unless immediate action is taken."

    "[Robert] Vallent went on to say that it is not sufficient enough for the international community
    to push for a relaxation of the [Israeli] blockade [of Gaza], but for a complete lifting of it."

    "I see this extraordinarily inhuman and unjust process of [Israel] strangling gradually
    two million [Palestinian] civilians in Gaza that really pose a threat to nobody,"
    --Robert Piper (UN Coordinator for Humanitarian Aid and Development Activities)
  15. Zugzwang
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    14 Jul '17 01:38
    There's a controversy about a British band choosing to play in Israel.

    https://www.theguardian.com/music/2017/apr/24/artists-urge-radiohead-to-cancel-gig-in-israel

    "Leading arts world figures urge Radiohead to cancel Israel gig."

    "High-profile figures from the arts world, including Ken Loach to Roger Waters, have
    called on Radiohead to cancel an upcoming gig in Israel as part of a cultural boycott.
    An open letter also signed by the South African archbishop Desmond Tutu and the
    actors Maxine Peake, Ricky Tomlinson, Miriam Margolyes and Juliet Stephenson asks
    the band to reconsider performing in a country “where a system of apartheid has been
    imposed on the Palestinian people”.

    Also among the 47 signatories are the Wolf Hall director Peter Kosminsky, the Scottish
    Mercury prize-winning band Young Fathers, and the comedian Alexei Sayle. The letter
    was organised by Artists For Palestine UK and follows previous requests by Palestinian
    activists for Radiohead to pull out of the 19 July concert."

    "In 2015, 700 artists including Brian Eno, Richard Ashcroft, Riz Ahmed, Margolyes and Loach signed an
    open letter pledging a cultural boycott of Israel until the country’s “colonial oppression of Palestinians” ended."
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