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Debates Forum

  1. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    16 Feb '18 13:32
    This is a surprising article;

    An Ohio couple has temporarily lost custody of their 17-year-old daughter after refusing her transgender hormones prescribed by doctors who claim she suffers from gender dysphoria and will commit suicide without the drugs. A judge is expected to rule on her long term custody Friday.

    In 2016, the unnamed girl was hospitalized and diagnosed with depression, anxiety disorder, and gender dysphoria, which the American Psychiatric Association defines as “a conflict between a person’s physical or assigned gender and the gender with which he/she/they identify.” Doctors claim that the parents' treating the girl as a girl has triggered suicidal feelings.

    Temporary custody has been granted to Hamilton County Job and Family Services, which has placed the girl with her maternal grandparents, who support the transgender identity. The medical team from Cincinnati Children's Hospital Medical Center testified that the girl is improving because her grandparents are treating her like a boy. They argued that she should immediately start treatment to decrease the risk of suicide, however.

    https://pjmedia.com/faith/ohio-christian-parents-lose-custody-of-17-year-old-daughter-for-refusing-her-transgender-drugs/

    Before people complain about the source, here are a few corresponding sources:
    http://www.newnownext.com/parents-fight-for-custody-to-stop-their-trans-son-from-starting-hormones/02/2018/

    https://edition.cnn.com/2018/02/13/health/transgender-teen-medical-custody-fight/index.html

    What do you think about the state being allowed to remove custody from parents who do not want their children to transition genders?
  2. SubscriberSuzianne
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    16 Feb '18 13:44
    Originally posted by @philokalia
    What do you think about the state being allowed to remove custody from parents who do not want their children to transition genders?
    Same as I think of the state being allowed to remove custody from parents who do not want their children to receive a life-saving blood transfusion.

    Yes. Yes. Yes.

    Bravo for the state to protect these kids from parents intent on doing them harm.
  3. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    16 Feb '18 13:521 edit
    Originally posted by @suzianne
    Same as I think of the state being allowed to remove custody from parents who do not want their children to receive a life-saving blood transfusion.

    Yes. Yes. Yes.

    Bravo for the state to protect these kids from parents intent on doing them harm.
    Alright, so I understand why definitely the blood transfusion concept is relevant. It literally deals with the idea of saving a life.

    But... Let's say there is a 12-13 year old kid who wants to have hormone replacement theory because they think they are of the opposite gender, and their parents disapprove?

    Here it is a 17 year old, would you change your answer for that?

    How would age play a role in how you would tackle this tough discussion?

    EDIT: Because, of course, the idea is that this is not a valid compariso with blood transfusions because lterally lives are not at risk.
  4. Joined
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    16 Feb '18 14:02
    Originally posted by @philokalia
    Because, of course, the idea is that this is not a valid compariso with blood transfusions because lterally lives are not at risk.
    According to the story, the child was having suicidal tendencies because of her/his gender issues...

    "... lterally lives are not at risk"

    Are you sure?
  5. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    16 Feb '18 14:12
    Originally posted by @great-king-rat
    According to the story, the child was having suicidal tendencies because of her/his gender issues...

    "... lterally lives are not at risk"

    Are you sure?
    I should have prefaced it by saying 'directly.'

    Of course, something like 41% of transgender people attempt suicide in their life.

    But what is kind of interesting is that the numbers do not actually bode well for treating transgenderism with gender transitioning:

    The overall mortality for sex-reassigned persons was higher during follow-up (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 1.8–4.3) than for controls of the same birth sex, particularly death from suicide (aHR 19.1; 95% CI 5.8–62.9). Sex-reassigned persons also had an increased risk for suicide attempts (aHR 4.9; 95% CI 2.9–8.5) and psychiatric inpatient care (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 2.0–3.9). Comparisons with controls matched on reassigned sex yielded similar results. Female-to-males, but not male-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than their respective birth sex controls.

    Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.


    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

    It might actually put more lives at risk to proceed with these kinds of treatments while simultaneously destroying the privielges of parenting.
  6. Joined
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    16 Feb '18 14:16
    Originally posted by @philokalia
    I should have prefaced it by saying 'directly.'

    Of course, something like 41% of transgender people attempt suicide in their life.

    But what is kind of interesting is that the numbers do not actually bode well for treating transgenderism with gender transitioning:

    [quote]The overall mortality for sex-reassigned persons was higher during follow-u ...[text shortened]... hese kinds of treatments[/i] while simultaneously destroying the privielges of parenting.
    You wouldn't call a child who has been deemed suicidal by medical professionals in "direct" danger?

    You wanna wait for that first wrist cut to appear?
  7. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    16 Feb '18 14:23
    Originally posted by @great-king-rat
    You wouldn't call a child who has been deemed suicidal by medical professionals in "direct" danger?

    You wanna wait for that first wrist cut to appear?
    Oh sure I would, but I would put them into a mental health facility as opposed to shooting them up with hormones that alter their gender which can be an irreversible step down a path that seemingly does not, at all, alleviate the desires towards suicide.

    That's my stance on it.

    I am curious -- would you let a 10-12 year old kid start going on hormone blockers and the hormone replacement therapy to begin transitioning to another gender?
  8. Joined
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    16 Feb '18 14:28
    Originally posted by @philokalia
    Oh sure I would, but I would put them into a mental health facility as opposed to shooting them up with hormones that alter their gender which can be an irreversible step down a path that seemingly does not, at all, alleviate the desires towards suicide.

    That's my stance on it.

    I am curious -- would you let a 10-12 year old kid start going on hormone blockers and the hormone replacement therapy to begin transitioning to another gender?
    Why would I answer yes or no to such a general question, concerning a very difficult subject? Medical decisions such as these should be made after careful examination of the patient and after much deliberation.

    They should not be made after reading a description of the patient telling us no more than "a 10-12 year old kid", least of all by someone who is not a medical professional.
  9. Joined
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    16 Feb '18 14:36
    Originally posted by @philokalia
    Alright, so I understand why definitely the blood transfusion concept is relevant. It literally deals with the idea of saving a life.

    But... Let's say there is a 12-13 year old kid who wants to have hormone replacement theory because they think they are of the opposite gender, and their parents disapprove?

    Here it is a 17 year old, would you chang ...[text shortened]... at this is not a valid compariso with blood transfusions because lterally lives are not at risk.
    "But... Let's say there is a 12-13 year old kid who wants to have hormone replacement theory because they think they are of the opposite gender, and their parents disapprove?"
    but that is not the situation here, is there? a psych evaluation declared the 17 year old on the verge of suicide and recommended a treatment.

    the situation in the original post is much closer to that life saving blood tranfusion than your irrelevant example.
  10. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    16 Feb '18 15:16
    Originally posted by @zahlanzi
    "But... Let's say there is a 12-13 year old kid who wants to have hormone replacement theory because they think they are of the opposite gender, and their parents disapprove?"
    but that is not the situation here, is there? a psych evaluation declared the 17 year old on the verge of suicide and recommended a treatment.

    the situation in the original post is much closer to that life saving blood tranfusion than your irrelevant example.
    Completely agree.
  11. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    16 Feb '18 19:09
    Alright, fair enough. That is the situation here. The very specific situation.

    I have shown some data that would indicate that this path is generally not even healthy and may even increase the risk of suicide.

    But yeah, if you want to limit it specifically to a 17 year old, that is fine, I merely thought that we could extend the thread to cover a greater variety of topics.

    It seems like we'll need a different thread for a Jazz Jennings situation later, then.
  12. Joined
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    16 Feb '18 19:531 edit
    Originally posted by @philokalia
    This is a surprising article;

    [quote]An Ohio couple has temporarily lost custody of their 17-year-old daughter after refusing her transgender hormones prescribed by doctors who claim she suffers from gender dysphoria and will commit suicide without the drugs. A judge is expected to rule on her long term custody Friday.

    In 2016, the unnamed girl was ...[text shortened]... ing allowed to remove custody from parents who do not want their children to transition genders?
    I think children should be allowed to choose their sex even though they can't have sex leg....all.....y........

    No, that makes no sense, scratch that.

    The girl is in much better hands with the state. Children's services has an exemplary record. 😵
  13. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    16 Feb '18 20:29
    Originally posted by @whodey
    I think children should be allowed to choose their sex even though they can't have sex leg....all.....y........
    I think children should not be allowed to choose their gender because they have no legal gender.

    No, that makes no sense, scratch that.
  14. Standard membershavixmir
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    16 Feb '18 23:14
    I obviously couldn’t care less which sex anyone thinks they are as long as they’re fine sucking my anus.

    All rimming aside...
    And I know a lot of people who disagree with me...
    I find it very hard to accept that just because someone thinks they’re a girl, an alien, an angel or Napoleon, that they should change their bodies to fit their psychosis.

    Okay...

    That being said: if they have the means to... bloody hell... whatever, go for it.
    If I was guaranteed multiple orgasms, I’d have my dick cut off and I’d be ironing faster than you can say: “ich komme deine kabel repareren.”

    However: I seriously believe if you’ve got a scrotum with balls and a penis, you are a man.
    Anything else and you are a woman.

    I don’t judge.
    Hell, I could be wrong. Maybe it’s the concept of being able to finger yourself that makes you a woman.
    Kidding.. I finger myself all the time and get the neighbours to sniff my finger.

    And this leads me to the sphincter of my argument:
    People are too hung up about it all.

    Yeah, you have labia.. you are not a man.
    Yeah, you can wear a dress if you want and pee in the sink in the girls’a bathroom (we’ve all done it).
    Sure, you can call yourself whatever the hell you want...

    But.. don’t get all pissed off and feel discriminated against when I say: “Excuse me sir, could you pass me the newspaper, please.”

    I’m guessing and just couldn’t care less.
  15. Joined
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    17 Feb '18 00:092 edits
    From the CNN article:
    Hamilton County Job and Family Services temporarily placed the teen in his grandparents' home after the child had been hospitalized.
    In November 2016, the teen had contacted a crisis chat service to say he felt unsafe in his parents' home, according to the complaint. The teen reported that his father told him to kill himself, because he was "going to hell anyway," according to a transcript of the closing arguments.
    The complaint further states that an investigation found that the parents temporarily stopped their child's mental health counseling. And the therapist got an email from the mother saying they were seeking "Christian" therapy instead. The teen said he was forced to sit in a room and listen to Bible readings for over six hours at a time, according to the complaint.


    Evidently the parent's attorney denied the allegations, but like most things - there's a lot more to the story than what was given in the OP
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