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  1. SubscriberWOLFE63
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    22 Jun '18 11:571 edit
    Is the use of this bitchy, historical pejorative still warranted in the 21st Century?

    Or, does its contemporary usage serve as a cover-word for reverse-racism, jealousy and self-pity... carried forward by those eyeing the West from backward and stumbling societies?
  2. Standard memberDeepThought
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    22 Jun '18 12:10
    The EU commission might feel the term warranted in the light of the Brexit vote.
  3. Standard membervivify
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    22 Jun '18 12:131 edit
    Originally posted by @wolfe63
    Is the use of this bitchy, historical pejorative still warranted in the 21st Century?

    Or, does its contemporary usage serve as a cover-word for reverse-racism, jealousy and self-pity... carried forward by those eyeing the West from backward and stumbling societies?
    When you say "backward and stumbling society", which societies are you referring to?
  4. SubscriberWOLFE63
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    22 Jun '18 12:37
    Originally posted by @vivify
    When you say "backward and stumbling society", which societies are you referring to?
    Sorry for the generalization.
    The flailing, one-time democracies of Turkey and Egypt are examples. Former fledgling societies inclusive of modern secularism...they appear to be in reversion.

    Back to my OP: Could it be justified for an Egyptian to still invoke the derogatory term whilst lamenting the ails of his/her society? In short, "laying the blame"?
  5. Standard membervivify
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    22 Jun '18 13:021 edit
    Originally posted by @wolfe63
    Sorry for the generalization.
    The flailing, one-time democracies of Turkey and Egypt are examples. Former fledgling societies inclusive of modern secularism...they appear to be in reversion.

    Back to my OP: Could it be justified for an Egyptian to still invoke the derogatory term whilst lamenting the ails of his/her society? In short, "laying the blame"?
    The west, especially Great Britain and the U.S., has played quite a role in destabilizing mid-eastern and Asian nations. See India, the Korean peninsula, Israel and Palestine. Their invasions and divisions of those nations continues to have a terrible impact on those nations today. The U.S. continues war-mongering in those regions today; see Iraq, Yemen, Libya, etc.

    And I haven't even mentioned their pillaging of Africa, which I'm sure you're well-aware of, or their effect on Caribbean nations like Haiti, Central and South America....pretty much the entire world.

    So yes; there is justification for "laying the blame" on the West.
  6. SubscriberWOLFE63
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    22 Jun '18 13:03
    Originally posted by @vivify
    The west, especially Great Britain and the U.S., has played quite a role in destabilizing mid-eastern and Asian nations. See India, the Korean peninsula, Israel and Palestine. Their invasions and divisions of those nations continues to have a terrible impact on those nations today. The U.S. continues war-mongering in those regions today; see Iraq, Yemen, ...[text shortened]... se nations are merely "laying blame"; there is justification for "laying the blame" on the West.
    And so...what remedy is there for our "sins of the father"?
  7. Standard membervivify
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    22 Jun '18 13:153 edits
    Originally posted by @wolfe63
    And so...what remedy is there for our "sins of the father"?
    Again, it's not only in the past; western meddling continues today. The sins of the father are being committed by the children. Look at Russian* involvement in Syria, whose provision of weapons to Assad heavily contributed to the Syrian migrant crisis.

    As far as a "remedy", there are many ways the west can make up for the past; reparations are one way, since the west became rich of the spoils of those nations. But first and foremost, let's start by not calling nations we've helped destabilize "backward and stumbling". We tend to think of ourselves as superior, not realizing the extent we've contributed to the very things we mock about those nations.


    *Regarding Russia, I know they're not geographically considered "western", but politically and culturally, are much closer to Europe.
  8. Standard memberSleepyguy
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    22 Jun '18 13:16
    Originally posted by @wolfe63
    And so...what remedy is there for our "sins of the father"?
    A great question.

    A related question is whether the ancestors of the oppressed are better served by holding on to the grudge or moving on, because the ancestors of the oppressors aren't taking the blame.
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    22 Jun '18 13:421 edit
    Originally posted by @vivify
    When you say "backward and stumbling society", which societies are you referring to?
    Societies that do not embrace killing your unborn children, sexual deviancy, and lawless open borders, coupled with the notion that everything should be free, so just print more money.
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    22 Jun '18 13:574 edits
    Originally posted by @vivify
    The west, especially Great Britain and the U.S., has played quite a role in destabilizing mid-eastern and Asian nations. See India, the Korean peninsula, Israel and Palestine. Their invasions and divisions of those nations continues to have a terrible impact on those nations today. The U.S. continues war-mongering in those regions today; see Iraq, Yemen, ...[text shortened]... y much the entire world.

    So yes; there is justification for "laying the blame" on the West.
    I have to take issue with some of the examples you have used to illustrate your point. The Korean peninsula was colonized and severely damaged by Japan (definitely not a western country) and was liberated after Japan's defeat in WW2. South Korea today is wealthy and prosperous due to help from the West and the adoption of western style democracy. It cannot blame the nations that liberated it from Japan's tyrannical grip as without the West ethnic Koreans might have been exterminated or been replaced by settlers from Japan. North Korea is much worse off and was influenced by the USSR (not a western country).

    The concept of India as a nation did not exist until British colonialism artificially created British Raj. India is a very religiously and linguistically diverse region and was historically split into hundreds of kingdoms. The fact that it was so divided is exactly what enabled the British to exercise control over the subcontinent. India gained independence in 1947 (more than 70 years ago and more than enough time to eliminate poverty if it had adopted an economically sound policy, unlike the failed form of socialism that was in place until the 1990's). Many other countries ( including many former colonies) who were as poor as India in 1945 are now rich and powerful. For example, Germany and Japan were utterly destroyed by world war 2 and there was almost nothing left in either country in 1945. Both adopted capitalism and became wild successes.

    Japan was the second largest economy in the world after the U.S for much of the 20th century. Germany was 3rd or 4th. Malaysia, Singapore, the UAE, Qatar are all rich and successful today and have been independent for less time than India so it's wrong to blame the bad economic situation entirely on the British as other British colonies have undergone similar or worse situations and made a success of themselves despite colonization. The fact that India is still very poor is more a factor of poor economic policy from independence to the 1990's than non-existent postwar meddling by the west.

    Korea and India are poor examples of negative western meddling and you have neglected much better examples such as China, Vietnam, Iran or Afghanistan.

    Germany invaded and conquered almost all of Europe 75 years ago (similar timeframe to when Britain left India), devastated its cities and committed widespread genocide yet most of the countries which it severely damaged are successful today and the few that are not cannot blame Germany. The same can be said of some of the examples you have used with regards to the West. To continue to blame Germany is to bring up the eternal bogeyman, which distracts from the unsuccessful European country's own failings.
  11. Subscriberkmax87
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    22 Jun '18 14:48
    Originally posted by @vivify
    .... But first and foremost, let's start by not calling nations we've helped destabilize "backward and stumbling". We tend to think of ourselves as superior, not realizing the extent we've contributed to the very things we mock about those nations.....
    Too right yes. If the on-field performance of a soccer player left a lot to be desired and the press described his performance as "backward and stumbling" you would think that there would be an outpouring of moral outrage if it were discovered that the poor physical performance were not some accident of birth but rather the result of a sinister act of targeted malpractice, where the physician involved was actively nobbling the offspring of a particular "race" because of some unacceptable notion of a duty to purge humanity of any purported racially inferior bloodlines as determined by the superior folk.

    Would anyone have a problem if people thus affected were paid compensation for their pain and suffering?
  12. Standard membervivify
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    22 Jun '18 14:562 edits
    Originally posted by @ashiitaka
    I have to take issue with some of the examples you have used to illustrate your point. The Korean peninsula was colonized and severely damaged by Japan (definitely not a western country) and was liberated after Japan's defeat in WW2. South Korea today is wealthy and prosperous due to help from the West and the adoption of western style democracy. It canno ...[text shortened]... up the eternal bogeyman, which distracts from the unsuccessful European country's own failings.
    The driving force of the North and South Korean split are western influences. Yes, U.S. support contributed to the South's rise as an economic power, but western influence helped create the poverty-stricken dictatorship in the North, not least of all because of the U.S. - Russia proxy war.

    Regarding India, Britain's mishandling of the India-Pakistan partition resulted in some of the worst violence and bloodshed in that region's history. And that's just the tail end of centuries of British oppression, that still affects the region today. The ongoing battle for Kashmir is one vestige of British rule over the region.
  13. Standard memberSleepyguy
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    22 Jun '18 15:20
    Originally posted by @kmax87
    Too right yes. If the on-field performance of a soccer player left a lot to be desired and the press described his performance as "backward and stumbling" you would think that there would be an outpouring of moral outrage if it were discovered that the poor physical performance were not some accident of birth but rather the result of a sinister act of target ...[text shortened]... yone have a problem if people thus affected were paid compensation for their pain and suffering?
    Payment to the effected from the sinister physician? No problem. Forced payment to the great great great great grandchildren of the effected from the great great great great grandchildren of the sinister physician? Never going to happen.
  14. Zugzwang
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    22 Jun '18 19:22
    Originally posted by @wolfe63
    Is the use of this bitchy, historical pejorative still warranted in the 21st Century?

    Or, does its contemporary usage serve as a cover-word for reverse-racism, jealousy and
    self-pity... carried forward by those eyeing the West from backward and stumbling societies?
    The jingoistic American troll Wolfe63's obviously trolling again, spewing more nonsense.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfidious_Albion

    "Perfidious Albion is an anglophobic pejorative phrase used within the context of
    *international relations and diplomacy*..."

    1) 'Perfidious Albion' *accurately describes* how many people outside the UK have
    historically regarded British imperialism, which is the context in which I used it.

    2) 'Perfidious Albion' is directed against a country or a government, NOT an individual person
    in or from the UK, with the possible exception of diplomatic representatives of the UK.
    Therefore, 'Perfidious Albion' cannot be regarded as 'hate speech' against people.

    If a Cuban shouted 'Down with Yankee imperialism!', the jingoistic American troll Wolfe63
    presumably would misconstrue it as ' hate speech' against all Americans.

    "...serve as a cover-word for reverse-racism, jealousy and self-pity... carried forward
    by those eyeing the West from backward and stumbling societies?"
    --Wolfe63

    "The father of Israeli novelist Amos Oz wrote pamphlets for the Irgun that attacked
    "perfidious Albion" during the British rule in Palestine."
    --Wikipedia

    Israel's Prime Minister Menachem Begin was the leader of the Irgun. He loathed the British.
    So the racist troll Wolfe63 presumably believes that Israel's a "backward and stumbling
    society" "eying the West" with "reverse racism, jealousy, and self-pity".
  15. Zugzwang
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    22 Jun '18 19:412 edits
    Originally posted by @ashiitaka to Vivify
    I have to take issue with some of the examples you have used to illustrate your point. The Korean peninsula was colonized and severely damaged by Japan (definitely not a western country) and was liberated after Japan's defeat in WW2. South Korea today is wealthy and prosperous due to help from the West and the adoption of western style democracy ...[text shortened]... up the eternal bogeyman, which distracts from the unsuccessful European country's own failings.
    Ash's partially right and partially wrong about history.

    "South Korea today is wealthy and prosperous due to help from the West and the
    adoption of western style democracy..."
    --Ash

    Extremely misleading. The USA did NOT consistently attempt to advance democracy in Korea.
    For about 40 years, the Republic of Korea was generally ruled by a brutal right-wing dictatorship,
    which persecuted its suspected dissidents almost as cruelly as the DPRK did to its dissidents.
    The USA strongly supported this brutal right-wing (de facto) dictatorship in South Korea.

    "North Korea is much worse off and was influenced by the USSR ..."
    --Ash

    It's true that the DPRK asked for approval from the USSR but NOT China before it invaded the ROK in 1950.
    (China wanted peace in order to rebuild after decades of war, not to get involved in another war.)
    After the Korean War, the DPRK had to rebuild from scratch (nearly a moonscape).
    In fact, the DPRK's economy did fairly well (not that far behind the ROK's) until the 1980s.
    It's a myth that the DPRK's economic policies were always catastrophic from the start.

    India became independent in 1947. The People's Republic of China was founded in 1949.
    At that time, India and China were roughly at around the same level of economic development.
    Despite some catastrophic blunders (Great Leap Forward), China (which has adopted
    its peculiar version of capitalism) has become significantly wealthier than India.

    India continues to have many regional movements for secession or autonomy.
    Some of the most famous include Kashmir (with a Muslim majority that understandably
    believes that India deprived them of a moral right to join Pakistan) and the now crushed
    Sikh nationalist movement for an independent homeland in the Punjab (which triggered
    the assassination of Indira Gandhi after she ordered the army to crush the Sikhs).
    In short, India still has many minorities who really don't want to belong to India.
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