Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Joined
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    05 Apr '15 17:261 edit
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Attractive sales people make more money for their employees because they sell more.

    Thin people are fitter than fat people and are less likely to be off sick.
    I didn't say that there were no reasons for discrimination. I just said that it happens.

    Not all fat people get sick. Not all skinny people are healthy.

    Should employers argue that since white people have generally higher IQ's than black people that only white people should be hired because black people are dumb?
  2. Joined
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    05 Apr '15 17:32
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Attractive sales people make more money for their employees because they sell more.

    Thin people are fitter than fat people and are less likely to be off sick.
    Question: If you own an appliance store and from experience you have learned that your customers greatly prefer to deal with salespeople of one gender, is it morally acceptable to hire only salespeople of that gender (setting aside potential legal issues)?
  3. Joined
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    05 Apr '15 17:352 edits
    Originally posted by JS357
    Question: If you own an appliance store and from experience you have learned that your customers greatly prefer to deal with salespeople of one gender, is it morally acceptable to hire only salespeople of that gender (setting aside potential legal issues)?
    It amazes me how today's liberals see no problem in discriminating against the ugly and that fat. Well some liberals may not like discriminating against the ugly (especially the female liberal) but the fat are open targets.

    I suppose I should say the heterosexual fat people, if the person is gay then being fat doesn't count against him/her.
  4. Germany
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    05 Apr '15 18:19
    Originally posted by Eladar
    It amazes me how today's liberals see no problem in discriminating against the ugly and that fat. Well some liberals may not like discriminating against the ugly (especially the female liberal) but the fat are open targets.

    I suppose I should say the heterosexual fat people, if the person is gay then being fat doesn't count against him/her.
    Maybe you should lose some weight if you think life as a fatso is so tough.
  5. Joined
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    05 Apr '15 19:35
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Maybe you should lose some weight if you think life as a fatso is so tough.
    You think that I have suffered because I'm fat?

    Not at all. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy in liberal theology. You are a bigot, you just choose to be a bigot about things other than race.
  6. The Catbird's Seat
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    05 Apr '15 19:49
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    I object to hiring based on stereotypical beliefs.

    If Khalil Amine said he didn't hire blacks because they are all lazy or he didn't hire Jews because they are greedy schemers, would that be OK in your view?
    How about if the stereotypical beliefs are true of the individual in question?
  7. Zugzwang
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    05 Apr '15 22:401 edit
    Originally posted by JS357 to Divegeester
    Question: If you own an appliance store and from experience you have learned that your customers greatly prefer to deal with salespeople of one gender, is it morally acceptable to hire only salespeople of that gender (setting aside potential legal issues)?
    Is the Hooters restaurant chain (USA) doing anything wrong in strongly
    preferring to hire well-endowed young women ('Hooters girls' ) as waitresses?
    Some men have sued Hooters after being denied jobs as waiters there.
  8. Zugzwang
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    05 Apr '15 22:55
    Originally posted by no1marauder to AThousandYoung
    I'm sure a Chinese (from China) could have written her book in half the time then.
    There's at least one compelling reason why Chinese students have become
    accustomed to working harder than most Western students. Learning how
    to read and write Chinese is harder than learning how to read and write
    languages with alphabets. In order to become literate, a Chinese student
    must spend ample time memorizing thousands of characters. (It's necessary
    to learn at least about two thousand characters to become functionally literate.)
    Learning Chinese involves developing habits of disciplined hard work.

    In my experience, learning 100 new words in Chinese took significantly more
    time than learning 100 new words in English. When I once complained to my
    Chinese teacher about the amount of work required, she stared at me and
    scolded me for being lazy. I heard some of my Chinese classmates giggling.
    To be honest, I did not like to study as hard as many of them routinely did.

    Except for a favoured few (the children of high privilege), life in China tends
    to be ruthlessly competitive for students. Chinese students are reminded
    that they have to compete against others who are just as talented and
    willing to put in an extra hour of work every day. So they too must be
    willing to do an extra hour of work every day. And it escalates from there.
  9. Joined
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    05 Apr '15 23:491 edit
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Is the Hooters restaurant chain (USA) doing anything wrong in strongly
    preferring to hire well-endowed young women ('Hooters girls' ) as waitresses?
    Some men have sued Hooters after being denied jobs as waiters there.
    I happen to have a nephew who is in the Hooter's organization. We don't have much contact, so I don't know where he is in the organization now, but the last I saw him he was managing one of their restaurants. My wife and I visited it once and the female workers seemed quite happy. One of them was/is a single mom, she said, out of his hearing, that he was a great boss. I didn't see any females who were especially well endowed, but they were all fit and relatively young.

    Referring to the hiring lawsuit, it was a civil tort suit, not a title VII lawsuit. It was settled for some $$ and a commitment to hire support workers (bartenders, hosts, cooks, etc.) without regard to sex. The law recognizes that some kinds of establishments can do this. Edit: This lawsuit was settled some years earlier than the visit I describe above.

    I think the Hooter's situation is morally risky because it can so easily slide into some sort of exploitation. Some would say it is already there. But it exists, and the question of this thread is about the admittedly biased hiring policy. If the "business model" is kept as clean as my nephew has said it is, the hiring policy is at least, reasonable, reading that as "reason-able". Unfortunately, Hooters has had some problems with this.

    It is the overlap of two moral issues that clouds the issue. One is the gender bias in hiring, the other is the reason for that gender bias.

    My scenario, an appliance dealer, which no one has answered, is not so clouded.
  10. The Catbird's Seat
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    05 Apr '15 23:55
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Is the Hooters restaurant chain (USA) doing anything wrong in strongly
    preferring to hire well-endowed young women ('Hooters girls' ) as waitresses?
    Some men have sued Hooters after being denied jobs as waiters there.
    As far as I know, the Hooters suits haven't been successful.
  11. The Catbird's Seat
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    06 Apr '15 00:00
    Originally posted by JS357
    I happen to have a nephew who is in the Hooter's organization. We don't have much contact, so I don't know where he is in the organization now, but the last I saw him he was managing one of their restaurants. My wife and I visited it once and the female workers seemed quite happy. One of them was/is a single mom, she said, out of his hearing, that he was a gre ...[text shortened]... gender bias.

    My scenario, an appliance dealer, which no one has answered, is not so clouded.
    Seems that I recall a civil suit for wrongful termination by a young woman who let her weight get outside of Hooter's guidelines. I don't know how the suit was settled.
  12. Joined
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    06 Apr '15 00:09
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    There's at least one compelling reason why Chinese students have become
    accustomed to working harder than most Western students. Learning how
    to read and write Chinese is harder than learning how to read and write
    languages with alphabets. In order to become literate, a Chinese student
    must spend ample time memorizing thousands of characters. (It's ...[text shortened]... they too must be
    willing to do an extra hour of work every day. And it escalates from there.
    This comment makes me think that the hard working Chinese might long for the day that they can relax a little.

    On a side note, a quote:

    "“This invention, [writing] O king,” said Theuth, “will make the Egyptians wiser and will improve their memories; for it is an elixir of memory and wisdom that I have discovered.”

    But Thamus replied, “Most ingenious Theuth, one man has the ability to beget arts, but the ability to judge of their usefulness or harmfulness to their users belongs to another; and now you, who are the father of letters, have been led by your affection to ascribe to them a power the opposite of that which they really possess.


    For this invention will produce forgetfulness in the minds of those who learn to use it, because they will not practice their memory. Their trust in writing, produced by external characters which are no part of themselves, will discourage the use of their own memory within them. You have invented an elixir not of memory, but of reminding; and you offer your pupils the appearance of wisdom, not true wisdom, for they will read many things without instruction and will therefore seem to know many things, when they are for the most part ignorant and hard to get along with, since they are not wise, but only appear wise.” (Phaedrus 274c-275b)

    http://wondermark.com/socrates-vs-writing/

    It is perhaps ironic that it was Plato writing, or at least speaking to someone who wrote, and we have it because of that.
  13. Joined
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    06 Apr '15 00:50
    Originally posted by normbenign
    Seems that I recall a civil suit for wrongful termination by a young woman who let her weight get outside of Hooter's guidelines. I don't know how the suit was settled.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooters

    covers this.
  14. The Catbird's Seat
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    06 Apr '15 01:14
    Originally posted by JS357
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooters

    covers this.
    Yes, I thought the case of the oversized female was in Michigan. Strange, because Michigan is an "at will" employment State. Basically, you are hired and fired at will, and the employer doesn't have to provide a reason.
  15. Subscriberno1marauder
    Humble and Kind
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    06 Apr '15 02:05
    Originally posted by normbenign
    How about if the stereotypical beliefs are true of the individual in question?
    Judging an individual based on supposed "typical" traits of some group he belongs to a moral wrong. And the person having such stereotypical views is likely to see them in the individual even if they aren't there.

    In the case in the OP, a person has decided in advance that one ethnic group is more likely to be hard working and competent than another and uses that belief to make individualized assessments when deciding who to hire. No matter who defends this it is morally objectionable (and probably illegal in the US).
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