Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Standard membersh76
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    30 Oct '15 20:362 edits
    Francis decided to continue in the spirit of that document by condemning what he described as a modern form of anti-Semitism: the denial of the Jewish state’s right to exist.

    “To attack Jews is anti-Semitism, but an outright attack on the State of Israel is also anti-Semitism,” the Pope told a World Jewish Congress delegation. “There may be political disagreements between governments and on political issues, but the State of Israel has every right to exist in safety and prosperity.”

    Francis’s statement is noteworthy because the pontiff is far from an unconditional backer of Israel. He has criticized both sides of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and been willing to make powerful symbolic gestures in support of the Palestinian cause. Indeed, as veteran Vatican reporter John Allen has noted, this Church stance predates the current pope. But with his words on Wednesday, Francis drew a bright red line between critiquing Israeli policies and critiquing Israel’s existence. The former, he said, is legitimate and sometimes necessary; the latter is bigotry.


    http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/194614/pope-francis-anti-zionism-is-anti-semitism
  2. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    30 Oct '15 20:40
    "Anti-Semitism" is such a sloppy phrase. I don't like it.

    But I think Israel should exist as a nation-state though with redrawn borders.
  3. Standard membersh76
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    30 Oct '15 20:42
    Interesting counterpoint:

    http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.658297
  4. Standard memberRJHinds
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    30 Oct '15 21:16
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    "Anti-Semitism" is such a sloppy phrase. I don't like it.

    But I think Israel should exist as a nation-state though with redrawn borders.
    I agree. Some people think "Anti-Semitism" refers to only Jews and Israel.
  5. Standard memberRJHinds
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    30 Oct '15 21:18
    Originally posted by sh76
    Francis decided to continue in the spirit of that document by condemning what he described as a modern form of anti-Semitism: the denial of the Jewish state’s right to exist.

    “To attack Jews is anti-Semitism, but an outright attack on the State of Israel is also anti-Semitism,” the Pope told a World Jewish Congress delegation. “There may be political ...[text shortened]... ry.


    http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/194614/pope-francis-anti-zionism-is-anti-semitism
    Pope Francis is acting like a lying politician.
  6. Subscriberno1marauder
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    30 Oct '15 21:54
    Originally posted by sh76
    Francis decided to continue in the spirit of that document by condemning what he described as a modern form of anti-Semitism: the denial of the Jewish state’s right to exist.

    “To attack Jews is anti-Semitism, but an outright attack on the State of Israel is also anti-Semitism,” the Pope told a World Jewish Congress delegation. “There may be political ...[text shortened]... ry.


    http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/194614/pope-francis-anti-zionism-is-anti-semitism
    From the article:

    At a time, then, when college campuses are debating whether BDS constitutes constructive discourse on Israel, and local Hillel Houses are considering which sorts of critics of the Jewish state to lend a platform to, Francis’s and Obama’s guidance could not be more timely.


    Is that a call for censorship of persons who support a unitary State in Palestine (however unlikely that outcome may be)? Is such a position really "anti-Semitism"?
  7. The Catbird's Seat
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    30 Oct '15 22:02
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    "Anti-Semitism" is such a sloppy phrase. I don't like it.

    But I think Israel should exist as a nation-state though with redrawn borders.
    Why should Israel redraw its borders, when the current borders are the results of their neighbors attacking them. They did willingly give back Gaza. Typically, the winners of wars get to set new borders. Even when the winner was the aggressor.
  8. Subscriberno1marauder
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    30 Oct '15 22:10
    Originally posted by normbenign
    Why should Israel redraw its borders, when the current borders are the results of their neighbors attacking them. They did willingly give back Gaza. Typically, the winners of wars get to set new borders. Even when the winner was the aggressor.
    Israel was the attacker in 1967 (a very successful sneak attack in fact).

    The UN Charter, which Israel agreed to, accepted the principle that territory cannot be gained by war. Previous behavior of nation states is no longer relevant.
  9. The Catbird's Seat
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    30 Oct '15 22:14
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Israel was the attacker in 1967 (a very successful sneak attack in fact).

    The UN Charter, which Israel agreed to, accepted the principle that territory cannot be gained by war. Previous behavior of nation states is no longer relevant.
    The UN is a toothless tiger, and often led by nations with their own agendas, including the US.

    The '67 war statement seems revisionist to me. It's a long time ago, the year after I graduated from HS, so if you want to make that claim, please support as I'm not about to go hunting to do so for you.
  10. Subscriberno1marauder
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    30 Oct '15 22:241 edit
    Originally posted by normbenign
    The UN is a toothless tiger, and often led by nations with their own agendas, including the US.

    The '67 war statement seems revisionist to me. It's a long time ago, the year after I graduated from HS, so if you want to make that claim, please support as I'm not about to go hunting to do so for you.
    Israel shouldn't have joined it if they did not want to be held to the terms of membership. In any event, it was already well-established by 1967 that acquisition of territory by war was contrary to IL.

    This pro-Israel site gives a lot of excuses for it but does concede:

    By using the element of surprise, Israeli forces managed to break through the enemy lines after just six days of fighting and were in a position to march on Cairo, Damascus and Amman.

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths3/MF1967.html

    There's also this (which doesn't seem revisionist):

    Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin acknowledged in a speech in 1982 that its war on Egypt in 1956 was a war of “choice” and that, “In June 1967 we again had a choice. The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.”

    http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2010/07/04/israels-attack-on-egypt-in-june-67-was-not-preemptive/
  11. Hy-Brasil
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    30 Oct '15 22:32
    Yes Israel did a pre emptive strike on the Islamic aggressors and would have been fools not to.
  12. Subscriberno1marauder
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    30 Oct '15 22:351 edit
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    Yes Israel did a pre emptive strike on the Islamic aggressors and would have been fools not to.
    See my edit with the Menachem Begin quote above.

    Given what has happened over the last 48 years, they were clearly fools to. The Arab states that Israel attacked in 1967 were clearly secular ones; the Occupation of the West Bank has been a great boon to Islamic movements.

    EDIT: Egypt had hanged Sayyid Qutb, an ideological descendant of OBL, in 1966.http://atheism.about.com/od/islamicextremismpeople/a/qutb.htm
  13. The Catbird's Seat
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    30 Oct '15 22:36
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Israel shouldn't have joined it if they did not want to be held to the terms of membership. In any event, it was already well-established by 1967 that acquisition of territory by war was contrary to IL.

    This pro-Israel site gives a lot of excuses for it but does concede:

    By using the element of surprise, Israeli forces managed to break through the ...[text shortened]... on Cairo, Damascus and Amman.

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths3/MF1967.html
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

    Clearly the Israelis kept only the territory they considered necessary for their having a proper defense. Their Arab neighbors were building up for an attack, and the preemptive strikes were necessary to defeat an enemy or enemies which surrounded them.

    The UN drawn borders were to some extent indefensible. I find it curious that many anti Israelis both cite UN resolutions and fail to recognize that the creation of Israel was by the UN.

    Personally, I would like to see the UN disbanded, or at least kicked out of the US, and the US to withdraw.
  14. Subscriberno1marauder
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    30 Oct '15 22:42
    Originally posted by normbenign
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

    Clearly the Israelis kept only the territory they considered necessary for their having a proper defense. Their Arab neighbors were building up for an attack, and the preemptive strikes were necessary to defeat an enemy or enemies which surrounded them.

    The UN drawn borders were to some extent indefensible. ...[text shortened]... I would like to see the UN disbanded, or at least kicked out of the US, and the US to withdraw.
    Read the Begin quote above. Israel knew the Arab States would not attack it in 1967.

    Israel was not created by the UN nor were its 1948 borders set by it. A UN commission drew up a proposal for the division of Palestine highly favorable to the Jewish minority, but it was rejected by the Palestinian authorities. The Jewish minority then declared a State on their own and grabbed what they could ignoring the proposal's boundaries.
  15. Hy-Brasil
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    30 Oct '15 23:131 edit
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    See my edit with the Menachem Begin quote above.

    Given what has happened over the last 48 years, they were clearly fools to. The Arab states that Israel attacked in 1967 were clearly secular ones; the Occupation of the West Bank has been a great boon to Islamic movements.

    EDIT: Egypt had hanged Sayyid Qutb, an ideological descendant of OBL, in 1966.http://atheism.about.com/od/islamicextremismpeople/a/qutb.htm
    Okay Poor choice of words on my part . I should of said Arab.
    Never the less Israel was continually being provoked into war by its neighbors.
    eg: The mobilization of Arab forces. Approximately 465,000 troops, more than 2,800 tanks, and 800 aircraft ringed Israel.

    Continuous bombing from the Golan heights. (Syrian Army)

    Hundreds of state sponsored terror attacks on Israeli citizens.

    The blockade of the Straits of Tiran, which In 1956, the United States gave Israel assurances that it recognized the Jewish State's right of access to the Straits of Tiran.
    In 1957, at the UN, 17 maritime powers declared that Israel had a right to transit the Strait. Moreover, the blockade violated the Convention on the Territorial Sea and Contiguous Zone, which was adopted by the UN Conference on the Law of the Sea on April 27, 1958
    President Johnson acknowledged the closure of the Strait of Tiran was the casus belli .

    The above all provided from the link you gave with sources at the bottom of the page
    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/67_War.html#N_15_
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