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Debates Forum

  1. Zugzwang
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    07 Aug '17 21:262 edits
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/07/anti-atheist-prejudice-secularity

    "Atheists tend to be seen as immoral – even by other atheists: study
    Religious belief widely viewed as safeguard against ‘grossly immoral conduct’,
    according to new research."

    "The finding suggests that in an increasingly secular world, many –
    including some atheists – still hold the view that people will do bad
    things unless they fear punishment from all-seeing gods.

    The results of the study “show that across the world, religious belief is
    intuitively viewed as a necessary safeguard against the temptations of
    grossly immoral conduct,” an international team wrote in the journal
    Nature Human Behaviour. It revealed that “atheists are broadly perceived
    as potentially morally depraved and dangerous”.

    The study measured the attitudes of more than 3,000 people in 13 countries
    on five continents. They ranged from “very secular” countries such as
    China and the Netherlands, to those with high numbers of religious
    believers, such as the United Arab Emirates, the US and India."

    "The team found that people were about twice as likely to assume that the serial killer was an atheist."

    "“It is striking that even atheists appear to hold the same intuitive anti-atheist bias,"
    the study’s co-author, Will Gervais, a psychology professor at the University of Kentucky in Lexington, said.

    “I suspect that this stems from the prevalence of deeply entrenched pro-religious norms.
    Even in places that are currently quite overtly secular, people still seem
    to intuitively hold on to the believe that religion is a moral safeguard.”

    Only in Finland and New Zealand, two secular countries, did the experiment
    not yield conclusive evidence of anti-atheist prejudice, said the team.
    Distrust of atheists was “very strong in the most highly religious states
    like the United States, United Arab Emirates and India”, said Gervais,
    and lower in more secular countries.

    Such research was about more than stigma alone, he said.
    “In many places, atheism can be dangerous, if not fatal.”"
  2. Standard memberfinnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
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    07 Aug '17 21:401 edit
    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4046.Godless_Morality

    If God is the author of our moral code, how can we challenge it? Has increasing secularism eroded traditional moral systems? Bishop Richard Holloway challenges our assumptions and offers provocative solutions to these questions. He argues that moral codes are human constructs.

    A clear, convincing and compassionate case for why the Bible should not be the basis of societal morality. You might assume this would come from one of the New Atheists, but nope – Holloway was the Bishop of Edinburgh at the time he wrote this. His arguments are along the lines of: Christians have been too quick to codify context-specific rituals and traditions into blanket law; we have a tendency to pick and choose what we want the Bible to say (emphasizing the parts about sex and ignoring the bits about the poor and social justice); we’ve gotten it wrong before when it comes to morality (slavery is just the beginning); and, in general, we try to oversimplify the diversity and mystery of human life.

    Godless Morality is one of my all-time favorite theological/philosophical pieces. Holloway's differentiation between morals and ethics is classic. He is one of the most deeply empathetic religious leaders of our time.

    It is possible,

    Apparently.
  3. Standard membershavixmir
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    08 Aug '17 05:36
    Surprising.
  4. Germany
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    08 Aug '17 06:38
    I certainly didn't experience much prejudice when growing up. Then again, I don't think people were wondering if I was a serial killer.

    By the way, the Netherlands and Finland are not secular, let alone "very" secular (both have official state religions, as opposed to e.g. the U.S.). The article uses "secular" in an odd way, apparently referring to how religious people are as opposed to the explicit influence of religion in laws and government.
  5. Joined
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    08 Aug '17 07:281 edit
    Finland: The Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland has a special relationship with the Finnish state, its internal structure being described in a special law, the Church Act.

    Sweden: the Church of Sweden was until 2000 the official state church of Sweden.

    How about USA, is there a Church of the state? I don't think so (?).

    So who is the most secularized as a state? Finland, Sweden, or USA?
  6. Zugzwang
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    08 Aug '17 18:37
    Originally posted by @fabianfnas
    Finland: The Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland has a special relationship with the Finnish state, its internal structure being described in a special law, the Church Act.

    Sweden: the Church of Sweden was until 2000 the official state church of Sweden.

    How about USA, is there a Church of the state? I don't think so (?).

    So who is the most secularized as a state? Finland, Sweden, or USA?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_God_We_Trust

    ""In God We Trust" is the official motto of the United States."

    I watched an American television drama about the Second World War, which jingoistically
    celebrated the heroic Americans always outwitting and outfighting their enemies.
    In order to reinforce the point that the Nazis were absolutely evil, the Americans absurdly
    claimed that all Nazis were fanatical atheists, who had erased all mention of God.
    In fact, the motto of the Wehrmacht, though not of the Waffen-SS, was 'Gott mit uns'.
  7. Behind the scenes
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    09 Aug '17 06:08
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/07/anti-atheist-prejudice-secularity

    "Atheists tend to be seen as immoral – even by other atheists: study
    Religious belief widely viewed as safeguard against ‘grossly immoral conduct’,
    according to new research."

    "The finding suggests that in an increasingly secular world, many –
    including some atheist ...[text shortened]... ut more than stigma alone, he said.
    “In many places, atheism can be dangerous, if not fatal.”"
    Now that you've proven beyond a reasonable doubt that white people and people of faith are evil, you've eliminated about 90% of the world's population, keep going Duchess, soon you will have proved that only YOU are worth saving. If only the rest of us poor souls could rise your exalted level! 😲
  8. Standard memberfinnegan
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    09 Aug '17 09:41
    Originally posted by @mchill
    Now that you've proven beyond a reasonable doubt that white people and people of faith are evil, you've eliminated about 90% of the world's population, keep going Duchess, soon you will have proved that only YOU are worth saving. If only the rest of us poor souls could rise your exalted level! 😲
    ...people of faith are evil, you've eliminated about 90% of the world's population...


    Goodness. Would D64 have fallen into the same error as the author of this post on Sprituality? (You of course)

    Please be careful around those who ask questions like:

    Does GOD want you to do___________?

    Does GOD want you to JOIN a_______?

    What does GOD think of__________?

    People who ask these things are either selling something, or implying they have superior knowledge. Learn to think for yourself, don't blindly follow these people. I know this sounds obvious, but history of full of people looking for someone to follow, because they can't think for themselves.
  9. Standard membershavixmir
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    09 Aug '17 10:11
    I often find the people who are the most Abrahamic in their religious faiths, are not the least violent / prejudiced to be around.

    Ask Netenyahoo if killing is a sin.
    Ask Tony Blair if the other cheek should be turned.
    Ask a Wahhabist if Sura 2:256 is free for interpretation.

    That being said, atheists can be complete nut-jobs as well.
    As for psychopathology, which I interpret as having a lack of conscience, it basically has less to do with religion or non-religion, but more to do with a genetic make-up and parental rejection with a rigid mother-figure.

    Now, one could argue, that Calvinism has a higher chance of bringing forth a sociopath, than, say, Catholicism. And that genetically, it's passed on in these upbringings.
    Do Calvinist societies have more psychopaths than other societies? I do not know.
  10. Joined
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    09 Aug '17 10:15
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/07/anti-atheist-prejudice-secularity

    "Atheists tend to be seen as immoral – even by other atheists: study
    Religious belief widely viewed as safeguard against ‘grossly immoral conduct’,
    according to new research."

    "The finding suggests that in an increasingly secular world, many –
    including some atheist ...[text shortened]... ut more than stigma alone, he said.
    “In many places, atheism can be dangerous, if not fatal.”"
    When they start rounding up atheists by the millions to throw you all in ovens let me know.

    Until then....................😴
  11. Standard memberfinnegan
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    09 Aug '17 10:17
    Originally posted by @whodey
    When they start rounding up atheists by the millions to throw you all in ovens let me know.

    Until then....................😴
    Yes, let's set the bar as high as we can. Anything short of this is okay folks.
  12. Joined
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    09 Aug '17 10:191 edit
    Originally posted by @mchill
    Now that you've proven beyond a reasonable doubt that white people and people of faith are evil, you've eliminated about 90% of the world's population, keep going Duchess, soon you will have proved that only YOU are worth saving. If only the rest of us poor souls could rise your exalted level! 😲
    Fire back up those ovens Europe. Duchy is in town!

    And yes, Duchy is anti-Israel as well.

    Of course, only Americans are bigoted, right? Then again, all we did was take black slaves. It's not like we rounded them all up and murdered them by the millions.

    Yea, yea, you are only against the Zionist government and not really anti-Semitic anymore. And yea, yea, Hitler claimed to be a Christian. So it's all the Bible's fault.

    Blah, blah, blah.
  13. Joined
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    09 Aug '17 10:232 edits
    Originally posted by @finnegan
    Yes, let's set the bar as high as we can. Anything short of this is okay folks.
    Well the Jews are still a target. Just look at Jews in terms of socioeconomics. They are a very small group yet seem to be at the top of the heap. This leads to Marxist envy and 1%'er bashing that has continued for centuries. Hitler used them merely as a money making scheme. He just rounded them up, took their gold, and sent them off to die. Then he would create a currency from the countries he conquered, looted their country with the currency, create hyperinflation in the said countries, and tell the puppet governments to find the Jews, take their gold, send them to the death camps, and stabilize their currency.

    Shrug, it worked.
  14. Standard memberfinnegan
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    09 Aug '17 10:321 edit
    Originally posted by @whodey
    Well the Jews are still a target. Just look at Jews in terms of socioeconomics. They are a very small group yet seem to be at the top of the heap. This leads to Marxist envy and 1%'er bashing that has continued for centuries. Hitler used them merely as a money making scheme. He just rounded them up, took their gold, and sent them off to die. Then he wo ...[text shortened]... ke their gold, send them to the death camps, and stabilize their currency.

    Shrug, it worked.
    Nurse will bring your meds soon whodey.
  15. Joined
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    09 Aug '17 11:561 edit
    Originally posted by @finnegan
    Nurse will bring your meds soon whodey.
    Wait just a darn minute

    Hitler, a Christian.

    Slave owners, Christians.

    Abortion lovers in the US who have slaughtered well over 50 million unborn children, Christians.

    Donald Trump, Christian.


    Duchess, you were right! Can you ever forgive me? 😲

    Then again, forgiving would be the Christian thing to do so ixna on the forgivena.

    What method of punishment do you recommend?
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