Please turn on javascript in your browser to play chess.
Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. 14 Nov '17 21:46
    Originally posted by @quackquack
    Perhaps if they did something that was illegal in China but not in the US, people would argue that they should not be subject to law that they did not know or have reason to expect. But I don't think anyone including Trump believes that these kids "deserve' special treatment. Trump asked because it is easy to ask and apparently it was granted because ...[text shortened]... criminals out of their country and the US was happy to get some Americans back on American soil.
    Trump asked because it is easy to ask and apparently it was granted because China really didn't care."
    --Quackquack

    Again, I doubt that China's President ever would ask for special treatment for a Chinese citizen
    accused of crimes in the USA. And if he did, then I expect that it would be counter-productive.
    There would be an about universal chorus from American politicians and media fiercely
    opposing any special leniency for this Chinese citizen. It seems likely that, if convicted,
    this Chinese citizen then would be punished more harshly than a white American would
    be if convicted of the same crime.
  2. 14 Nov '17 21:47
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    "Trump asked because it is easy to ask and apparently it was granted because China really didn't care."
    --Quackquack

    It's wrong to believe that Chinese merchants "really don't care" about arrogant Americans
    walking into their shops and taking whatever they want without having to pay for it.
    Even in the USA, that kind of behavior is regarded as ob ...[text shortened]... e entitled
    American (minor) celebrities like ordinary Chinese citizens would be likely treated.
    They were returned to the US because it was easy solution. But no one thinks that these people deserved special treatment.
  3. 14 Nov '17 22:15
    Originally posted by @quackquack
    They were returned to the US because it was easy solution. But no one thinks that these people deserved special treatment.
    I have *not* read any news story today saying that the three American college athletes
    *already* have been released from China and have returned to the USA.
    Can Quackquack cite a link to that story?

    "But no one thinks that these people deserved special treatment."
    --Quackquack

    Not even No1Marauder?

    I would submit that spending a brief time under 'house arrest' in a luxury hotel is hardly punishment.
    Many ordinary people in China would enjoy being 'punished' in such a way.

    After these American athletes return to the USA, UCLA has the power to discipline them further.
    It remains to be seen whether UCLA will do anything to show its disapproval of their alleged crimes in China.
  4. Subscriber no1marauder
    Caustic/Disagreeable
    14 Nov '17 22:28 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    I have *not* read any news story today saying that the three American college athletes
    *already* have been released from China and have returned to the USA.
    Can Quackquack cite a link to that story?

    "But no one thinks that these people deserved special treatment."
    --Quackquack

    Not even No1Marauder?

    I would submit that spending a brief time un ...[text shortened]... be seen whether UCLA will do anything to show its disapproval of their alleged crimes in China.
    I believe all people, both Chinese and US citizens, should not be subject to the harsh sentences and violations of due process that the Chinese system routinely allows.

    Here's a brief book review highlighting some of said violations and deficiencies: http://www.cefc.com.hk/article/he-jiahong-back-from-the-dead-wrongful-convictions-and-criminal-justice-in-china/
  5. Subscriber no1marauder
    Caustic/Disagreeable
    14 Nov '17 22:39
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    I have *not* read any news story today saying that the three American college athletes
    *already* have been released from China and have returned to the USA.
    Can Quackquack cite a link to that story?

    "But no one thinks that these people deserved special treatment."
    --Quackquack

    Not even No1Marauder?

    I would submit that spending a brief time un ...[text shortened]... be seen whether UCLA will do anything to show its disapproval of their alleged crimes in China.
    http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/21409577/ucla-bruins-players-detained-china-set-return-united-states
  6. 15 Nov '17 00:07
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    I have *not* read any news story today saying that the three American college athletes
    *already* have been released from China and have returned to the USA.
    Can Quackquack cite a link to that story?

    "But no one thinks that these people deserved special treatment."
    --Quackquack

    Not even No1Marauder?

    I would submit that spending a brief time un ...[text shortened]... be seen whether UCLA will do anything to show its disapproval of their alleged crimes in China.
    I found a link to a news story about the Americans being released and returning to the USA.
    (Using Google search earlier was not helpful.)
  7. 15 Nov '17 00:26 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    I believe all people, both Chinese and US citizens, should not be subject to the harsh sentences and violations of due process that the Chinese system routinely allows.

    Here's a brief book review highlighting some of said violations and deficiencies: http://www.cefc.com.hk/article/he-jiahong-back-from-the-dead-wrongful-convictions-and-criminal-justice-in-china/
    Does No1Marauder believe that US citizens--particularly if they are African American--have
    the 'moral right' to walk into shops in China and take whatever they please without paying
    and then, at worst, get sent back soon to the USA without having to pay any fines or even
    making a pro forma apology?

    Does No1Marauder approve of the extremely lenient sentence given by a white American judge
    to two white American men who chased down and brutally beat to death a Chinese American?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Vincent_Chin

    "Vincent Chin ... was a Chinese American man who was severely beaten in the Detroit suburb
    of Highland Park, Michigan, in June 1982. The beating led to his death four days later. ...
    Ebens and Nitz initially faced a charge of second-degree murder, but were convicted in a
    county court for manslaughter. They were both sentenced to three years of probation."

    While I have many criticisms (which would be beyond No1Marauder's comprehension)
    of China's government, I know Chinese realities far better than the extremely close-minded
    racist troll No1Marauder, who does his dishonest utmost to deny the reality of anti-Chinese racism.
    In contrast to the extremely arrogant white American No1Marauder, I have spent many hours
    speaking (in Chinese dialects as well as English or other Western languages) with many
    diverse Chinese, of varying ages, backgrounds, passports, and ideological sympathies.

    I know about the realities of life in China largely from speaking directly to diverse Chinese.
    In contrast, No1Marauder must depend upon what primarily white journalists write about China.
    No1Marauder, who apparently has much admired British colonial rule in Hong Kong, may
    prefer to swallow the BBC's glowing propaganda about British rule in Hong Kong, whereas
    I knew well-educated Hong Kong Chinese who disagreed in the strongest terms with it.

    The BBC recently made the extremely misleading claim that China's aircraft carrier was (only) 'Soviet-built',
    falsely implying that China had bought it completely as it's now from the USSR (or a successor state).
    In fact, the USSR never came close to completing it. Many years later, China bought the
    'rusting hulk' (to quote Wikipedia) from Ukraine and had it towed (it had no working engines) to China.
    Then the Chinese almost completely rebuilt it (including installing all the electronics).
    I suspect that many Westerners prefer to believe that the Chinese never could have done that on their own.
  8. Subscriber no1marauder
    Caustic/Disagreeable
    15 Nov '17 00:48
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    Does No1Marauder believe that US citizens--particularly if they are African American--have
    the 'moral right' to walk into shops in China and take whatever they please without paying
    and then, at worst, get sent back soon to the USA without having to pay any fines or even
    making a pro forma apology?

    Does No1Marauder approve of the extremely lenient s ...[text shortened]... that many Westerners prefer to believe that the Chinese never could have done that on their own.
  9. 15 Nov '17 00:57
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/21400082/president-donald-trump-asks-chinese-president-xi-jinping-help-ucla-bruins-case

    "Donald Trump asks Chinese president to help in UCLA case"

    "President Donald Trump personally asked Chinese President Xi Jinping
    to help resolve the case involving three UCLA basketball players, including
    L ...[text shortened]... llege athletes did
    anything wrong in allegedly shoplifting in China and deserve any punishment?
    If a Chinese citizen were accused of the same crimes, then, given the
    same evidence, it's most likely the bail would have been denied and that
    person would be facing a sentence of at least a few years in prison.


    That's not the half of it. Trump would be accusing China of sending its criminals to the US and insist that they pay for building a wall. Not that building a wall makes any sense, but that's never stopped Trump.
  10. 15 Nov '17 02:21
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    No1Marauder's a willfully ignorant lying racist troll who 'knows' nothing
    about Asian Americans other than stereotypes and myths drawn from
    the biased mainstream US media.

    Now No1Marauder presumably would not accept that the white-dominated
    media could be the final authority on African Americans, but he's eager
    to believe that arrogant white people like himself know much more than
    Asian Americans (including their academic specialists) about Asian Americans.
    What racist hubris and hypocrisy!

    The entire academic field of Asian American studies is on my side.
    Would the arrogant racist troll No1Marauder dare to visit the Asian American
    studies department at, say, Cornell University, and tell its professors
    that anti-Asian racism does not exist or his other nonsense?

    I know diverse Asian Americans not only from reading scholarly books
    and articles or the diverse Asian American media (which I expect that
    the racist No1Marauder never would read). I know Asian Americans
    because I have spent time in their homes and listened to their voices,
    not only in English.

    No1Marauder's one of the most obstinately close-minded racist writers here,
    though his racism is directed against the softer target of Asians rather than
    the more common target of blacks. But No1Marauder's racism is no
    less reprehensible for choosing a politically much weaker target.
  11. 15 Nov '17 02:46
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    I believe all people, both Chinese and US citizens, should not be subject to the harsh sentences and violations of due process that the Chinese system routinely allows.

    Here's a brief book review highlighting some of said violations and deficiencies: http://www.cefc.com.hk/article/he-jiahong-back-from-the-dead-wrongful-convictions-and-criminal-justice-in-china/
    Even China's government has begun to acknowledge that its justice system has serious failures.

    http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/01/asia/china-executed-man-found-innocent-nie-shubin/index.html

    "'My son is innocent': Chinese man exonerated 21 years after execution."

    "More than two decades after her son was executed for rape and murder, Zhang Huanzhi
    has finally proven his innocence. China's top court overturned Nie Shubin's conviction
    Friday, in a landmark case that exposed deep flaws in China's criminal justice system."

    "Another man, Wang Shujin, confessed to the crime that Nie was executed for in 2005 --
    10 years after Nie was executed."

    "Following his execution his father Nie Xuesheng tried to commit suicide, but survived."
    "The court said that Nie's family could ask for compensation from the government."

    "For years, it seemed no one would listen, but Zhang later found an unlikely ally in the
    People's Daily -- the official newspaper of the ruling Communist Party."

    Let's accept the premise that China's justice system has many miscarriages of justice.
    The American lawyer No1Marauder has *not* cited any evidence, let alone proven, that
    there has been a miscarriage of justice IN THIS CASE. (Reportedly, there's video evidence
    of the Americans stealing.) But No1Marauder apparently wants to argue the existence of
    injustice in OTHER CASES means that the Americans should be given a free pass in THIS CASE,
    which would mean, in effect, a license to steal in China.

    I would have no objection if these Americans received exactly the same punishment that
    they would have received under California law (they attend UCLA) for the same crimes.

    https://www.shouselaw.com/shoplifting.html

    "[California] Penal Code 459.5 PC reads : “(a) . . [S]hoplifting is defined as entering a
    commercial establishment with intent to commit larceny while that establishment is open
    during regular business hours, where the value of the property that is taken or intended to
    be taken does not exceed nine hundred fifty dollars ($950). Any other entry into a
    commercial establishment with intent to commit larceny is burglary"
    "In other words, shoplifting is entering an open business intending to commit the crime of petty theft."

    Under California law, if the value of the stolen goods is no more than $950, then the accused
    should be tried for shoplifting. If it's worth more than that, then they should be tried for burglary.

    If these American college athletes had committed the same crimes in the USA, then I doubt
    that they would been let off with no time in jail, no community service, no fines, and not
    even an obligation to make a pro forma apology (which their lawyer could write for them).
  12. Subscriber no1marauder
    Caustic/Disagreeable
    15 Nov '17 10:10
    Unlike our 3rd rate Inspector Javert in this thread, I'd prefer to have more facts before screeching about the supposed unfairness of the result here. The PAC-12 commissioner said the result was resolved to the satisfaction of Chinese authorities and there seems to be nothing to support many of the fanciful presumptions presented above. The 3 players and the UCLA athletic director and men's basketball coach are scheduled to hold a press conference today; it might be a good idea to hear what they have to say before flying off the deep end.
  13. Standard member sonhouseonline
    Fast and Curious
    15 Nov '17 16:29
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    "Trump asked because it is easy to ask and apparently it was granted because China really didn't care."
    --Quackquack

    It's wrong to believe that Chinese merchants "really don't care" about arrogant Americans
    walking into their shops and taking whatever they want without having to pay for it.
    Even in the USA, that kind of behavior is regarded as ob ...[text shortened]... e entitled
    American (minor) celebrities like ordinary Chinese citizens would be likely treated.
    It is clearly political. Look at the Trump brands that he requested be legalized in China after he was president. They said, SURE By all means.
  14. 20 Nov '17 07:48 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by @sonhouse
    It is clearly political. Look at the Trump brands that he requested be legalized in China after he was president. They said, SURE By all means.
    Some Americans (No1Marauder?) may like to deny that these American college athletes
    received any special treatment for political reasons.

    http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/21471202/us-president-donald-trump-tweets-response-lavar-ball

    "Donald Trump responds to LaVar Ball by tweeting he should have left UCLA players in jail."

    "Now that the three basketball players are out of China and saved from years in jail,
    LaVar Ball, the father of LiAngelo, is unaccepting of what I did for his son and that shoplifting is no big deal. I should have left them in jail!"
    --President Trump (on Twitter)

    "Shoplifting is a very big deal in China, as it should be (5-10 years in jail), but not to father LaVar.
    Should have gotten his son out during my next trip to China instead. China told them why
    they were released. Very ungrateful!"
    --President Trump (on Twitter)

    "UCLA athletic director Dan Guerrero said Wednesday that the players stole from three stores."

    This confirms that the three Americans stole more than one pair of sunglasses from one store.
    Some of their apologists liked to imply that must be all that they could have stolen.

    Levar Ball apparently believes that his son did nothing wrong by stealing in China.
    Surely, don't the proud Americans deserve an apology from the Chinese police for inconveniencing them?

    "UCLA's trip to China was viewed as more than just an athletic program road trip;
    it was a goodwill journey for the entire university."

    UCLA attracts many students (who pay 'top dollar' ) from China, so UCLA must take care
    not to develop an image of condoning privileged Americans violating laws in China.
  15. 04 Dec '17 21:40
    http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/21667748/lavar-ball-pulls-son-liangelo-ball-ucla

    "LaVar Ball pulls son LiAngelo Ball out of UCLA"

    "LiAngelo Ball, a freshman, is one of three UCLA basketball players who were indefinitely
    suspended after a shoplifting incident in China. ... The three players are subject to review
    for violating the university's Student Conduct Code, which includes a section on theft."

    ""We get back over here and the consequences were even stiffer than China. So basically they're in jail here."
    --LaVar Ball

    As far as I can infer, LaVar Ball believes that his son and two other college basketball
    players did nothing wrong in stealing from three shops (as UCLA has admitted) in China.
    With such parental guidance, LiAngelo Ball could go far, but in which direction?