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  1. 12 May '11 03:01
    Noam Chomsky: "The U.S. and Its Allies Will Do Anything to Prevent Democracy in the Arab World"

    http://www.democracynow.org/2011/5/11/noam_chomsky_the_us_and_its

    I have not heard this point of view on the corporate news media. Isn't that propaganda by omission?

    Doesn't Chomsky make perfect sense here? If not, why?
  2. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    12 May '11 03:19
    Originally posted by Metal Brain
    I have not heard this point of view on the corporate news media.
    Corporate news media has to bear in mind its advertising revenue. But, nowadays, you can expose yourself to views like those of Chomsky on the internet just as easily as you can access corporate news media.
  3. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    12 May '11 04:26 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by Metal Brain
    Noam Chomsky: "The U.S. and Its Allies Will Do Anything to Prevent Democracy in the Arab World"

    http://www.democracynow.org/2011/5/11/noam_chomsky_the_us_and_its

    I have not heard this point of view on the corporate news media. Isn't that propaganda by omission?

    Doesn't Chomsky make perfect sense here? If not, why?
    You and Chomsky are truly kindred spirits. You have essentially the same problem in your geopolitical analyses (though Chomsky is undeniably brilliant).

    Both of you have no problem making sweeping arguments that turn on extremely fine points of logic and are based mostly on interesting-sounding speculation. Neither of you have any need for nuance.

    Like it or dislike it, US policy in the ME is really not that black and white. In some cases, we've smartly encouraged democracy and in other cases we've foolishly taken steps in the name of democracy. Iraq War 2, ill conceived though it may have been, was plainly inspired by the prospect of converting Iraq into a stable democracy. US intervention in Libya is also plainly a pro-democracy step (again, ill-conceived though it is). Supporting the ouster of Mubarrak, likewise. Yes, the US does not want the SA Royal family overthrown right now. Duh. Which sane person is sitting there rooting for a Saudi civil war right now? This is not just about oil; it's also about, oh, gee... maybe, uh? world peace?

    Chomsky loves to take the position that is contrary to conventional wisdom use a whole slew of generalizations to show that the nefarious capitalist overlords are hell bent on causing ruin and destruction.

    That article is a classic example. Sweeping generalizations buoyed by thinly veiled plays to emotion replete with the usual legacy buzzwords used for decades whenever someone gets a hankering to attack any white powerful government anywhere... ("If the dictators support us, and the population is under control, then what’s the problem? This is like imperialism. What’s the problem if it works? As long as they can control their populations, fine." )

    Hey, Noam:

    1) The "media" is not some monolith under "corporate control." As FMF states above, access to information is pretty much universal to those who seek it nowadays

    2) The western government leaders are people; not Manchurian plants. They want what's best for the people, by and large and they usually find the same sort of tactics wrong as do regular people.

    3) The west is not some uniform machine either. There are cross-purposes among and within governments and opposition parties in all western democracies are pretty darn good at challenging the policies of the parties in power.

    There is no such thing as "The U.S. and Its Allies Will Do Anything to..." anything! The "U.S. and Its Allies" are not capable of acting in that sort of concert.
  4. Subscriber Sleepyguy
    Reepy Rastardly Guy
    12 May '11 04:32 / 1 edit
    rec'd Mr. 76.
  5. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    12 May '11 04:34 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Sleepyguy
    rec'd Mr. 76.
    thank you, Mr. Guy
  6. 12 May '11 05:15
    Originally posted by sh76
    Iraq War 2, ill conceived though it may have been, was plainly inspired by the prospect of converting Iraq into a stable democracy.
    Trying very hard meanwhile to ignore the fact that the US put Saddam there in the first place in order to subvert and stop democracy.

    Also the US would not have been "inspired by the prospect of [democracy]" if Iraq didn't hold a particularly key role in an oil rich and religiously important region of the world. No such inspiration ever comes to the US when it comes to Southern African countries.
  7. 12 May '11 05:51 / 2 edits
    lol Don't forget the weapons of mass destruction and Saddam's links to Al-Q. More or less justice of 9/11 for racist America onto the wrong people.
  8. Standard member Seitse
    Doug Stanhope
    12 May '11 06:28 / 1 edit
    What Chomsky and also Said need to do is to put some moisturizing cream
    in their rear after the arse wipe they have always got from Alan Dershowitz.
  9. Standard member Palynka
    Upward Spiral
    12 May '11 09:10
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Trying very hard meanwhile to ignore the fact that the US put Saddam there in the first place in order to subvert and stop democracy.
    Democracy was not the one stopped, Qasim was. That the US preferred a (what they perceived) pro-Western fascist to a anti-Western fascist is not the same as wanting to subvert and stop democracy.
  10. 12 May '11 09:13 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Palynka
    Democracy was not the one stopped, Qasim was. That the US preferred a (what they perceived) pro-Western fascist to a anti-Western fascist is not the same as wanting to subvert and stop democracy.
    How is essentially overriding the democratic process in a foreign country and installing your own puppet anything other than 'stopping democracy'?
    So they wanted to stop democracy not as a primary goal, but because they didn't like the likely outcome of democracy and various other interests in the region such as oil and Israel. They did, deliberately and effectively stop democracy.
  11. Standard member Palynka
    Upward Spiral
    12 May '11 09:17 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by sh76
    You and Chomsky are truly kindred spirits. You have essentially the same problem in your geopolitical analyses (though Chomsky is undeniably brilliant).

    Both of you have no problem making sweeping arguments that turn on extremely fine points of logic and are based mostly on interesting-sounding speculation. Neither of you have any need for nuance.

    Like it hing! The "U.S. and Its Allies" are not capable of acting in that sort of concert.
    Rec'd for a nice outline of Chomsky's MO. If "the West" had not intervened in Libya then Chomsky would be accusing the West of not supporting a popular uprising because they were afraid of its result. In geopolitical commentary, he's just another man with only one hammer seeing nails everywhere.
  12. Standard member Palynka
    Upward Spiral
    12 May '11 09:19 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    How is essentially overriding the democratic process in a foreign country and installing your own puppet anything other than 'stopping democracy'?
    So they wanted to stop democracy not as a primary goal, but because they didn't like the likely outcome of democracy and various other interests in the region such as oil and Israel. They did, deliberately and effectively stop democracy.
    There was no democratic process was in place when the US supported Saddam's overthrow of Qasim.
  13. 12 May '11 10:44
    I don't see why the US would have a problem with a moderate democratic government. Heck, the US is already allied with Turkey (not Arab, but still) and its semi-theocratic government.
  14. Standard member Palynka
    Upward Spiral
    12 May '11 11:10
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    I don't see why the US would have a problem with a moderate democratic government. Heck, the US is already allied with Turkey (not Arab, but still) and its semi-theocratic government.
    Turkey is a pretty secular country. More than many European countries or the US, in my view.
  15. 12 May '11 11:11
    Originally posted by Palynka
    Turkey is a pretty secular country. More than many European countries or the US, in my view.
    Yes, but its current government surely wants to reduce the secular nature of the system.