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  1. Joined
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    28 Jun '17 09:161 edit
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    Trump is supporting the expansion of private prisons.

    Nauseating.
    Oh well, you made your own bed, americans and at least this one horrible thing doesn't affect much the rest of the world.
  2. Joined
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    28 Jun '17 10:05
    Let me guess, gay sex and gang rapes will also be forbidden at these private homophobic prisons.

    Sickening.
  3. Subscribersonhouse
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    28 Jun '17 11:29
    Originally posted by whodey
    Let me guess, gay sex and gang rapes will also be forbidden at these private homophobic prisons.

    Sickening.
    And it will be in the prison owners agenda to expand to include as many prisoners as possible, 10 men in a room, the owners then give massive kickback to Trump.
  4. Joined
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    28 Jun '17 12:09
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    And it will be in the prison owners agenda to expand to include as many prisoners as possible, 10 men in a room, the owners then give massive kickback to Trump.
    Well, prison is prison and not a luxury hotel. 10 prisoners in the same cell? Bah, in Gulag they had a dozen.

    What bothers me is that USA is number one country in the world with the most prisoners per capita. Currently ~700 per 100,000 inhabitants. It's an industry USA has gotten depended upon. Prisoners is the new working class...
  5. Standard membersh76
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    28 Jun '17 12:191 edit
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGESalMRrEs
    Trump is supporting the expansion of private prisons.

    Nauseating.
    Oh well, you made your own bed, americans and at least this one horrible thing doesn't affect much the rest of the world.
    While your continued reliance on late night comedians is amusing, the idea that the United States' prison problem is in large part influenced by the fact that some are run by private companies has been debunked. This article (from Brown Political Review, hardly a conservative bastion) explains how.

    http://www.brownpoliticalreview.org/2017/03/focus-sentencing-laws/

    First of all, the moral claims against profiteering from imprisoning Americans, while logical at a philosophical level, are flawed in practice. There will always be corporations who profit through incarceration, regardless of whether prisons are public or private. Makers of barbed wire, surveillance cameras, prison uniforms, and guns, for example, all receive contracts from prisons. Michael O’Hare, professor of Public Policy at UC Berkeley, points out that for profit to be removed from the process of incarceration, “every potato on the inmates’ plates, and every brick in the building, and all the guards’ shoes, must be made by a government agency.” This is, of course, an unrealistic notion.

    More thoughtful claims against the profit motive of private prisons point not to generalized moral issues, but to potential cutting of corners in rehabilitation. Some contend that private prisons skimp on essential services such as adjustment programs or mental health in order to make it more likely that their inmates will reoffend — securing themselves a larger “customer” base. However, studies fail to confirm this fear. While some studies do find that recidivism rates in private prisons tend to be higher than public ones, others come to the opposite conclusion. The vast majority of studies, including an influential study published in the the Journal of Criminology and Public Policy, find that there is no significant difference in recidivism rates for public and private prisons. Without statistics clearly backing up the claim that private prisons result in high rates of recidivism, the argument that private prisons cut corners in rehabilitation is hard to defend.


    There are too many Americans in prison, yes. But that's mainly due to our overly harsh sentencing laws, pointless and futile war on drugs and, at least, IMHO, on the fact that our prisons have a confused philosophy. Punishment can be primarily to deter or primarily to rehabilitate. Our prisons don't do a good job at rehabilitation but are also not harsh enough to really deter hardened criminals. Bill James had what I think is an amazing idea for running the prison system, but of course, it's too intelligent for most politicians to comprehend.

    https://tinyurl.com/ycwp7h8q
  6. Standard memberfinnegan
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    28 Jun '17 13:082 edits
    Originally posted by sh76
    While your continued reliance on late night comedians is amusing, the idea that the United States' prison problem is in large part influenced by the fact that some are run by private companies has been debunked. This article (from Brown Political Review, hardly a conservative bastion) explains how.

    http://www.brownpoliticalreview.org/2017/03/focus-sentencing ...[text shortened]... course, it's too intelligent for most politicians to comprehend.

    https://tinyurl.com/ycwp7h8q
    Typically Pollyanna view ignoring the major debate about America's "prison industrial complex," a term which I think Angela Davis coined.

    e.g. "
    As the prison population grows, a rising rate of incarceration feeds small and large businesses such as providers of furniture, transportation, food, clothes and medical services, construction and communication firms. Furthermore, the prison system is the third largest employer in the world. Prison activists who buttress the notion of a prison industrial complex have argued that these parties have a great interest in the expansion of the prison system since their development and prosperity directly depends on the number of inmates. They liken the prison industrial complex to any industry that needs more and more raw materials, prisoners being the material.[15]
    The prison industrial complex has also been said to include private businesses that benefit from the exploitation of the prison labor;[16] prison mechanisms remove "unexploitable" labor, or so-called "underclass", from society and redefine it as highly exploitable cheap labor.[17] Scholars using the term "prison industrial complex" have argued that the trend of "hiring out prisoners" is a continuation of the slavery tradition.[18] Prisoners perform a great array of jobs and are exploited in the following ways: minimal payments, no insurance, no strikes, all workers are full-time and never arrive late. Cynthia Young states that prison labor is an "employers' paradise". Prison labor can soon deprive the free labor of jobs in a number of sectors, since the organized labor turns out to be uncompetitive compared to the prison counterpart.[19]
    Journalist Jonathan Kay in the National Post defined the "prison industrial complex" as a corrupt human-warehousing operation that combines the worst qualities of government (its power to coerce) and private enterprise (greed)." He states that inmates are kept in inhuman conditions and that the need to preserve the economic advantage of a full prison leads prison leaders to thwart any effort or reforms that might reduce recidivism and incarcerations"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison%E2%80%93industrial_complex

    It's not that you are obliged to accept this material or agree with it, but you seem to be trying to ignore its existence in your euphemistic post. In fact, the evidence is so powerful that you really ought to be prepared to consider it propperly.
  7. Joined
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    28 Jun '17 14:46
    Originally posted by sh76
    While your continued reliance on late night comedians is amusing, the idea that the United States' prison problem is in large part influenced by the fact that some are run by private companies has been debunked. This article (from Brown Political Review, hardly a conservative bastion) explains how.

    http://www.brownpoliticalreview.org/2017/03/focus-sentencing ...[text shortened]... course, it's too intelligent for most politicians to comprehend.

    https://tinyurl.com/ycwp7h8q
    "While your continued reliance on late night comedians is amusing"
    Sure, questioning the authority of the source, not the information. I am sure this isn't a fallacy and is used in debates all the time. Because facts explode if they are followed by a joke and you are too ignorant to know if satire is a french dish or a gem you put on engagement rings if you can't afford a diamond.


    i can't be bothered to prove, again and again, the same issue.
    i don't care that you found an article that you say "debunks" this claim. I can't be bothered to read it and fact check it to see if it's correct, or maybe it just makes completely different statements that you misunderstood.

    It is obvious that a private prison only makes money if it's filled. This, coupled with the fact that you STILL allow people to buy politicians who will make, is enough of a reason to conclude that private prisons are a bad idea.
    The state doesn't have an interest to keep citizens in jail, quite the opposite. The state has an interest in having that non violent offender back to paying taxes as soon as possible.
    A company whose business is to make money off prisoners has an interest in getting as many prisoners as possible and spending as little as possible on their living conditions and rehabilitation.
  8. Standard memberfinnegan
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    28 Jun '17 15:281 edit
    The conflict of interest arising when the USA developes an immense range of prison industries using effectively slave labour ought to be self evident to anyone with the legal training which SH76 boasts. It is just not hard to demonstrate - it is intrinsic to the system. One can discuss how to manage that conflict of interest with some credibility but to deny its existence is absurd.

    SH76 displays the persistent ability to stare at a dystopian reality and see only the unconvincing propaganda. This continues long after the evidence has been set out for him in detail. In some ways he is a fascinating demonstration of something quite chilling, which is the famous phrase "the banality of evil". He sees no evil because he knows a priori that it cannot be there; to his mind, there must always be an alternative possibilty in which his comfortable assumptions can remain intact and he is not terribly demanding in terms of critical thinking. Any alternative explanation will do, just so long as it does not require him to face reality. [Occasionally the cognitive dissonance seems to ripple his cool exterior, only for everything to return to banality, since he simply cannot shake free from his plastic, insincere world view.]

    There are many categories of people making up the current malaise that is the USA. Moral cowards are one category that is hard to shift.
  9. Subscribersonhouse
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    28 Jun '17 16:401 edit
    Originally posted by sh76
    While your continued reliance on late night comedians is amusing, the idea that the United States' prison problem is in large part influenced by the fact that some are run by private companies has been debunked. This article (from Brown Political Review, hardly a conservative bastion) explains how.

    http://www.brownpoliticalreview.org/2017/03/focus-sentencing ...[text shortened]... course, it's too intelligent for most politicians to comprehend.

    https://tinyurl.com/ycwp7h8q
    All we have to do is look at the Norwegian system. The profit I am talking about would not be the more or less fixed profit of shoes and such, I suppose they would get more sales the more prisoners there are but the owners of the prison would definitely get more profits by jamming prisoners in unhealthy concentrations in prisons. It is already happening, not some philosophical conundrum.

    One thing sick about the situation: The corporation owning the prison would fight tooth and nail any idea that reduces prison population, like those silly laws reducing marijuana possesion to fully legal or some variation reducing the prison population by 50% right there.

    So there would be OBVIOUS back door lobbying to keep marijuana laws as they are today, ruining young folks lives for possessing a single joint.

    You can imagine how hard prison owners would respond to relaxed laws allowing most non-violent offenders to go free. The last thing THEY would want.
  10. Germany
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    28 Jun '17 18:52
    Originally posted by sh76
    While your continued reliance on late night comedians is amusing, the idea that the United States' prison problem is in large part influenced by the fact that some are run by private companies has been debunked. This article (from Brown Political Review, hardly a conservative bastion) explains how.

    http://www.brownpoliticalreview.org/2017/03/focus-sentencing ...[text shortened]... course, it's too intelligent for most politicians to comprehend.

    https://tinyurl.com/ycwp7h8q
    No need to reinvent the wheel. Just copy the world's most successful prison system (as it happens, the Norwegian one) and you're set.
  11. Subscribersonhouse
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    28 Jun '17 19:48
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    No need to reinvent the wheel. Just copy the world's most successful prison system (as it happens, the Norwegian one) and you're set.
    Americans are WAY too fearful, that is to say, the lawmakers, to ever contemplate something as radical as the norwegian system. Treating prisoners with RESPECT? ABSURD.
  12. Joined
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    28 Jun '17 20:47
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGESalMRrEs
    Trump is supporting the expansion of private prisons.

    Nauseating.
    Oh well, you made your own bed, americans and at least this one horrible thing doesn't affect much the rest of the world.
    I think the real issue is that you have personal problems.

    Maybe we can help. Tell us about your private prison.
  13. Standard membersh76
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    28 Jun '17 21:061 edit
    Originally posted by finnegan
    The conflict of interest arising when the USA developes an immense range of prison industries using effectively slave labour ought to be self evident to anyone with the legal training which SH76 boasts. It is just not hard to demonstrate - it is intrinsic to the system. One can discuss how to manage that conflict of interest with some credibility but to ...[text shortened]... g up the current malaise that is the USA. Moral cowards are one category that is hard to shift.
    Has anyone ever seen Finn and Duch in the same room together?

    In all seriousness, if this were posted by almost anyone else on this board, I'd suspect it were a (fairly good) caricature of D64.
  14. Standard membersh76
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    28 Jun '17 21:08
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    No need to reinvent the wheel. Just copy the world's most successful prison system (as it happens, the Norwegian one) and you're set.
    I'd be okay with giving the Norwegian system (or something comparable) a try.
  15. Standard memberfinnegan
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    28 Jun '17 22:401 edit
    Originally posted by sh76
    Has anyone ever seen Finn and Duch in the same room together?

    In all seriousness, if this were posted by almost anyone else on this board, I'd suspect it were a (fairly good) caricature of D64.
    Your post was a stunning exercise in distraction and perverse re-framing of the topic. Take this quote from your post: "The vast majority of studies, including an influential study published in the the Journal of Criminology and Public Policy, find that there is no significant difference in recidivism rates for public and private prisons. Without statistics clearly backing up the claim that private prisons result in high rates of recidivism, the argument that private prisons cut corners in rehabilitation is hard to defend." This is a very impressive and scientific sounding comment, but it is actually utterly dishonest because it has shifted the focus of attention away from the real issues. Using sophistry in this way to misdirect readers and confuse issues is a technique of manipulation and disinformation which goes far beyond beng an honest mistake, and is indeed utterly cynical.

    Just to be clear: if recidivism rates are comparable betwen public and private prisons, that only demonstrates that both share defective common values and methods in respect of that measure. There is no reason given to believe that the US prison system is even designed to achieve changes in behaviour, so that recidivism may not actually be relevant to their operation. For example, the three strikes and you're out philosophy is exclusively punitive and has no concept of behaviour modification whatsoever. Life imprisonment is not designed to produce moral rejuvenation. For another example, laws that block ex convicts from voting do not anticipate rehabilitation as good citizens. When American sentencing shows the most remote interest in behaviour modification, then recidivism rates will acquire a relevance that they presently lack. American prisons are simply human warehouses and American voters like SH76 / you lack the moral courage to name this for what it is.

    So the system is not designed to prevent recidivism and measuring recidivism rates will not produce real information. Now address the conflict of interest arising from the scale and profitability of prison industries, the scale on which slave labour is intrinsic to the system, the abuse of human rights that entails, and the extent to which Black Americans are disproportionately targetted. These are huge industries and if you are unable to Google it for yourself I suppose I could get you some statistics to make the point clear enough. But even the prices paid for holding prisoners in their unhealthy and overcrowded cells are sufficient to secure huge profits for private companies. The American prison system is a cess pit of corruption and oppression.

    This is a powerful account to start with:

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-prison-industry-in-the-united-states-big-business-or-a-new-form-of-slavery/8289

    Ninety-seven percent of 125,000 federal inmates have been convicted of non-violent crimes. It is believed that more than half of the 623,000 inmates in municipal or county jails are innocent of the crimes they are accused of. Of these, the majority are awaiting trial. Two-thirds of the one million state prisoners have committed non-violent offenses. Sixteen percent of the country’s 2 million prisoners suffer from mental illness.


    Since you are engaged in deliberately distorting and misrepresenting the issues, in a way that I have found you do for other topics - notably mass murder and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians - my comments on your moral turpitude are valid.
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