Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Joined
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    10 Jul '18 21:48
    Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz was the wife of King George III and she was also the aunt of Frederick William III who helped fight the Napoleonic wars with the British Empire.

    Relatives tend to stick together more than non relatives, right?
    British - Prussian collusion? LOL!
  2. Joined
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    10 Jul '18 21:57
    Originally posted by @metal-brain
    Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz was the wife of King George III and she was also the aunt of Frederick William III who helped fight the Napoleonic wars with the British Empire.

    Relatives tend to stick together more than non relatives, right?
    British - Prussian collusion? LOL!
    Fun fact: she had African ancestry on both her maternal and paternal side.

    Another fun fact: I'm a descendant of hers.
  3. Zugzwang
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    10 Jul '18 22:001 edit
    Originally posted by @metal-brain
    Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz was the wife of King George III and she was also the aunt of Frederick William III who helped fight the Napoleonic wars with the British Empire.

    Relatives tend to stick together more than non relatives, right?
    British - Prussian collusion? LOL!
    MetalBrain writes (at best) misleadingly about European history.

    Since the Hanoverian Succession, the British royal family's close connections to Germany were well-known.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Hanover

    "...a German royal dynasty that ruled the Electorate and then the Kingdom of Hanover,
    and also provided monarchs of Great Britain and Ireland from 1714 to 1800 and ruled
    the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland from its creation in 1801 until the death
    of Queen Victoria in 1901."

    MetalBrain seems to conflate Prussia with Germany, which did not become a single country until 1870.
    Before then, there were many Germans (such as Bavarians) who were traditionally anti-Prussian.

    Of course, the UK did ally with Prussia from time to time (such as in the Seven Years War),
    but that was primarily on account of having common enemies (particularly France) rather
    than upon royal blood relationships. Indeed, the outbreak of the First World War showed
    that clashing national interests outweighed any ties of kinship among monarchs.
  4. Zugzwang
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    10 Jul '18 22:06
    Originally posted by @ashiitaka to MetalBrain
    Fun fact: she had African ancestry on both her maternal and paternal side.

    Another fun fact: I'm a descendant of hers.
    Ash's 'fun fact' remains a conjecture in dispute.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlotte_of_Mecklenburg-Strelitz#Claims_of_African_ancestry

    "Mario de Valdes y Cocom, historian of the African Diaspora, suggests that Charlotte
    may have had distant African ancestry; she descended from Margarita de Castro e Souza,
    a 15th-century Portuguese noblewoman, who traced her ancestry to King Afonso III of
    Portugal (1210–1279) and one of his mistresses, Madragana (c. 1230–?).[53]

    In a 1996 episode of the PBS TV series, Frontline, Valdes speculated that Scottish
    painter Allan Ramsay emphasized the Queen's alleged "mulatto" appearance in his
    portrait of her to support the anti-slave trade movement,[54] and noted that Baron
    Stockmar had described the Queen as having a "mulatto face" in his autobiography
    and that other contemporary sources made similar observations.[54]

    Critics of Valdes's theory point out that Margarita's and Madragana's distant perch in
    the queen's family tree – nine and 15 generations removed, respectively – makes any
    African ancestry that they bequeathed to Charlotte negligible. It is uncertain whether
    Madragana was even black. In addition, Charlotte shared descent from Alfonso and
    Madragana with a large proportion of Europe's royalty and nobility."
  5. SubscriberWOLFE63
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    10 Jul '18 22:13
    Wikipedia has an authoritative and peer-reviewed article regarding the House of Hohenzollern.

    If you're planning to write a thesis, it's highly recommended.
  6. Zugzwang
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    10 Jul '18 22:131 edit
    Originally posted by @ashiitaka
    Fun fact: she had African ancestry on both her maternal and paternal side.

    Another fun fact: I'm a descendant of hers.
    Americans tend to be extremely 'racially conscious', so there's this speculation in the USA:
    Americans also are the only people who use the 'one drop of black blood' makes a person black standard.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_heritage_of_presidents_of_the_United_States

    "The African-American heritage of United States presidents relates mostly to questions
    and claims made by amateur historians as to whether five presidents of the United States
    who were accepted as white also had significant recent African ancestry."
  7. Zugzwang
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    10 Jul '18 22:171 edit
    Originally posted by @wolfe63
    Wikipedia has an authoritative and peer-reviewed article regarding the House of Hohenzollern.

    If you're planning to write a thesis, it's highly recommended.
    "Humy shows his complete naivete about Wolfe63's real motives in attacking me again.
    Wolfe63's one of my most obsessed hateful trolls. Wolfe63 has been running around
    the threads in several forums, tirelessly hurling insults and lies at me.

    One of Wolfe63's more recent blatant lies is to accuse me of plagiarizing Wikipedia.
    In fact, whenever I quote from Wikipedia, I attribute it to Wikipedia. Wolfe63 loves to
    falsely accuse me of plagiarizing from Wikipedia when I write some long original comments.
    When I challenge Wolfe63 to quote the Wikipedia articles that he claims that I plagiarized,
    Wolfe63 never can do that. Instead, Wolfe63 hurls more insults and reiterates his lies."
    --Duchess64 (to Humy, who had asked Wolfe63 about his motives)

    "Yeah...what she [Duchess64] said."
    --Wolfe63 (apparently to Humy)
  8. Joined
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    10 Jul '18 22:202 edits
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    MetalBrain writes (at best) misleadingly about European history.

    Since the Hanoverian Succession, the British royal family's close connections to Germany were well-known.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Hanover

    "...a German royal dynasty that ruled the Electorate and then the Kingdom of Hanover,
    and also provided monarchs of Great Britai ...[text shortened]... orld War showed
    that clashing national interests outweighed any ties of kinship among monarchs.
    The relationship of the Houses of Hanover and Saxe-Coburg and Gotha with the House of Hohenzollern and other aristocratic German families is well known. Many Germans married into the British royal family and vice versa. Queen Victoria spoke German with her husband, Prince Albert. She even had a German accent, which she hired a tutor to eradicate. Her son, Edward VII, also spoke with a German accent. Both preceded the wars, of course.

    Britain and Germany might be at each other's throats from the football field to the battlefield to the global markets but the countries are inextricably intertwined.

    Edit: I'm fascinated with Genealogy and I have always wanted to take a DNA test. A company called 23andme does a good kit but they don't ship here and even if you get a kit to SA they won't accept the sample if it isn't shipped from the country it arrived. I was in Catalonia 2 weeks ago and while I was there I ordered a kit, did the swab and sent it off. It's currently at the lab in the United States.

    Most English and even some Scots have a significant chunk of Germanic DNA - the average Englishman is 60% Germanic. It occurred to me that I could have chunks of German and Jewish ancestry. That would be hmmm...interesting, to say the least.
  9. SubscriberWOLFE63
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    10 Jul '18 22:21
    Now she's quoting herself. It must be a lonely life she's living.
  10. Zugzwang
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    10 Jul '18 22:251 edit
    Originally posted by @ashiitaka
    The relationship of the Houses of Hanover and Saxe-Coburg and Gotha with the House of Hohenzollern and other aristocratic German families is well known. Many Germans married into the British royal family and vice versa. Queen Victoria spoke German with her husband, Prince Albert. She even had a German accent, which she hired a tutor to eradicate. Her son, ...[text shortened]... l field to the battlefield to the global markets but the countries are inextricably intertwined.
    During the Franco-German War of 1870-71, the neutral UK seemed more sympathetic
    toward Germany, given the French Emperor Napoleon III's reputation.

    When he wrote _Mein Kampf_, Hitler (who regarded France as Germany's enemy) did
    not regard the UK as destined to be Germany's enemy. One consequence was that the
    Kriegsmarine neglected to prepare for war (until too late) against the Royal Navy.

    The outbreak of war in 1914 brought misery to the lives of many Germans resident in the UK,
    who tended to be universally condemned as spies or saboteurs, even though few were.
    The British naval blockade, which resulted in terrible deprivation in Germany, brought
    the British a German reputation as 'the baby-starvers'. Yet the Germans seem to have
    been more forgiving of the British than the British were of the Germans after the war.
  11. Joined
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    10 Jul '18 22:332 edits
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    During the Franco-German War of 1870-71, the neutral UK seemed more sympathetic
    toward Germany, given the French Emperor Napoleon III's reputation.

    When he wrote _Mein Kampf_, Hitler (who regarded France as Germany's enemy) did
    not regard the UK as destined to be Germany's enemy. One consequence was that the
    Kriegsmarine neglected to prepare for w ...[text shortened]... in the UK,
    who tended to be universally condemned as spies or saboteurs, even though few were.
    I think Hitler moderated his opinion of the British when they criticized France's occupation of the Ruhr when Germany failed to pay up on time. Plus the English and some Scots are Germanic peoples while the French are not, so there's always the Hitler racial factor to consider.

    I believe he also thought that Britain saw the treaty of Versailles as too much in France's favour, which upset the European balance of power that Britain had sought to maintain since the fall of Napoleon, and that therefore Britain was now a natural enemy of France to rebalance the equation. It was not the treaty of Versailles that upset this balance of power, but rather the unifications of Germany and Italy.

    The treaty of Versailles was certainly an unnecessary humiliation of the German people. Had it not been (WW1 was more a series of unfortunate events with most parties at least a bit guilty) then history would most certainly be different. I can understand Germans wishing to undo the treaty in the interwar era - it's the racial superiority and genocide I can't wrap my head around.

    He never quite gave up on the idea of a German-British alliance, which would rule the land and seas. He was said to be ready to dispatch German troops to help Britain maintain control of its colonial possessions. He apparently said that he longed for the day when Britain and Germany would drive the Americans from Iceland - together. Of course, he badly misjudged the British and essentially knew little of the country and its culture. He referred to the United Kingdom as "England".
  12. Joined
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    10 Jul '18 23:001 edit
    When it comes to Germany I'm much more neutral than I used to be. I try to be more objective when judging what's their fault and what isn't, and to not be so tribal. It occurred to me that I have managed to separate a love of Japanese culture and language with my deep disdain for Japanese politics. I can never condone the Yasukuni shrine or why successive Japanese prime ministers must insist upon visiting it. Prime minister Abe was once a supporter of Toujou Yuuko, who fiercely defended her grandfather's reputation and said things like "any rapes in Nanjing were committed by Chinese and American spies to smear our great nation" (not a quote). She also thought similar things of the rape situation in Korea.

    It seems to me Germans have done a better job than Japanese about owning up to their history, yet I can reconcile my like for Japan despite their politics but not for Germany. I thought that I must therefore try to be more consistent with my judgements of Germany.

    I asked my Japanese tutor about the Yasukuni shrine recently. I had sat next to a Korean woman on the way back from Spain and when I mentioned I studied Japanese we started talking about the war and I asked her what she thought about the shrine. She said she condemned the continued Japanese support for the shrine and nothing unexpected considering the history there, so I wanted to get the opinion of a Japanese person. My tutor (and her husband, a "coloured" South African) apparently believe that Mr Abe is right and that soldiers dying for Japan is somehow a beautiful idea. While my tutor obviously does not represent all of Japan, it was slightly worrying.
  13. Zugzwang
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    10 Jul '18 23:17
    Originally posted by @ashiitaka
    I think Hitler moderated his opinion of the British when they criticized France's occupation of the Ruhr when Germany failed to pay up on time. Plus the English and some Scots are Germanic peoples while the French are not, so there's always the Hitler racial factor to consider.

    I believe he also thought that Britain saw the treaty of Versailles as too ...[text shortened]... ally knew little of the country and its culture. He referred to the United Kingdom as "England".
    During the First World War, Germany had a reputation as about the least anti-Jewish society in Europe.
    German Jews were patriotic and proud to fight for the Vaterland against, say, Tsarist Russia,
    which was notoriously anti-Jewish.

    During the First World War, a German Jewish officer recommended that Hitler be decorated for bravery.
    After he took power, Hitler did remember and gave him and his family special treatment.

    Hitler (an Austrian) had to overcome his natural aversion to Italy (which had seized the
    South Tyrol, inhabited by many German speakers) to make an alliance with Mussolini.

    Hitler tended to make alliances for pragmatic reasons, not strictly on account of his racist ideology.
    After all, Hitler allied with the Japanese, whom he called 'honorary Aryans'.
  14. Zugzwang
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    10 Jul '18 23:291 edit
    Originally posted by @ashiitaka
    When it comes to Germany I'm much more neutral than I used to be. I try to be more objective when judging what's their fault and what isn't, and to not be so tribal. It occurred to me that I have managed to separate a love of Japanese culture and language with my deep disdain for Japanese politics. I can never condone the Yasukuni shrine or why successive ...[text shortened]... utiful idea. While my tutor obviously does not represent all of Japan, it was slightly worrying.
    Ash, it's good that you show a capacity to learn and grow.

    There's a common knee-jerk anti-German bias among many Britons and Americans.
    As I recall, No1Marauder apparently argued that Germans, just for being German, could
    never be trusted in a leadership position in the EU.

    I met a Japanese American student (her mother's a Japanese immigrant; her father's white)
    who was going to attend a lecture by an American historian friend of mine on Japanese war crimes.
    She assumed that the lecture was going to about only war crimes *against* the Japanese.
    She had learned from her parents (presumably primarily from her mother) that Japan was
    completely innocent of war crimes of China. She was certain that all accusations of
    Japanese war crimes must be lying Chinese Communist propaganda. She believed that
    the Japanese were always morally far superior to the Chinese throughout the war (1931-45).
    This was the opinion of a culturally American young woman.

    After the lecture (where damning evidence of Japanese war crimes in China was presented)
    I noticed that she had the face of a young woman whose complete belief system had been shattered.
    I wondered what questions she would ask her mother.
  15. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    11 Jul '18 00:40
    Originally posted by @ashiitaka
    I think Hitler moderated his opinion of the British when they criticized France's occupation of the Ruhr when Germany failed to pay up on time. Plus the English and some Scots are Germanic peoples while the French are not, so there's always the Hitler racial factor to consider.

    I believe he also thought that Britain saw the treaty of Versailles as too ...[text shortened]... ally knew little of the country and its culture. He referred to the United Kingdom as "England".
    There's a lot of Germanic influence on the descendants of the Western Franks but they are ultimately a Latin people.
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