Please turn on javascript in your browser to play chess.
Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Standard member spruce112358
    Democracy Advocate
    18 Dec '09 21:42
    Do Israeli people have the right to exist? Yes
    Do Palestinian people have the right to exist? Yes
    Does Israel have the right to exist? No. No nation has a right to exist. Only individuals have that right.
    Do Palestinians have the right to say Israel should not exist? Yes
    Should Palestinians be punished for saying so? No
    Should Palestinians have to give up the right to free speech in order to be granted the right to self-determination? No
    Should Holocaust Denial be a crime? No
    Should the state of Israel be dismantled? No
    Should Israel return to the 1967 borders and dismantle all settlements? Yes. Unless the one-state solution is implemented.
    Should Palestinians have their own state (or full citizenship in the Israeli one)? Yes
    Can Israel control the Palestinian state? No
    Can Israel control which political party is in power in the Palestinian state? No
    Can Israel control who/what enters and leaves the Palestinian State? No
    Should Palestinians in camps have the right to return to Israel? 50% of them should.
    Should Palestinians in camps have the right to return to the Palestinian state? 50% of them should.
    Can the Palestinians pile up arms in their state? Yes. They can have as many weapons as they want. They just cannot use them for anything unless they are attacked.
    Should Palestinian civilians have access to military equipment? No
    Should it be a crime to shoot rockets from the Palestinian state into Israel? Yes
    If a Palestinian shoots a rocket from the Palestinian state, can Israel invade? No. The perpetrator should be punished under Palestinian law.
    Can Israel strike at Palestinians BEFORE they have their state? No. WB and Gaza are under Israeli occupation or control and so Israel is still responsible for what happens there.
    Can Israel attack the Palestinian state if they feel threatened? No
    Can Israel attack the Palestinian state if they acquire nuclear arms? No
    Once a Palestinian state exists, if that state attacks Israel, can Israel respond with overwhelming force -- including nuclear weapons? Yes, absolutely.
    Should Israelis be shipped back to Europe? No
    Should Palestinians be shipped to other Arab states? No
  2. 18 Dec '09 21:48 / 2 edits
    Will people on both sides still be asking all of these same questions fifty years from now? Yes
  3. Subscriber kmax87
    You've got Kevin
    18 Dec '09 21:49 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by spruce112358
    Does Israel have the right to exist? [b]No. No nation has a right to exist. Only individuals have that right.
    Do Palestinians have the right to say Israel should not exist? Yes
    Should Palestinians be punished for saying so? No[/b]
    You are probably right nations tend to establish themselves by force. They tend not to wait for the approval of others in this matter. Well historically at least.


    If the Palestinians have rights to say Israel should not exist, does the converse of that statement also equally apply?
  4. Standard member SwissGambit
    Caninus Interruptus
    18 Dec '09 23:01
    Originally posted by spruce112358
    Once a Palestinian state exists, if that state attacks Israel, can Israel respond with overwhelming force -- including nuclear weapons? Yes, absolutely.
    *BZZZT*
  5. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    19 Dec '09 16:36
    Sounds reasonable for the most part.
    Do Israeli people have the right to exist? Yes
    Do Palestinian people have the right to exist? Yes
    Does Israel have the right to exist? No. No nation has a right to exist. Only individuals have that right.
    Do Palestinians have the right to say Israel should not exist? Yes
    Should Palestinians be punished for saying so? No
    Should Palestinians have to give up the right to free speech in order to be granted the right to self-determination? No
    Should Holocaust Denial be a crime? No
    Should the state of Israel be dismantled? No
    Should Israel return to the 1967 borders and dismantle all settlements? Yes. Unless the one-state solution is implemented.
    Should Palestinians have their own state (or full citizenship in the Israeli one)? Yes
    Can Israel control the Palestinian state? No
    Can Israel control which political party is in power in the Palestinian state? No
    Can Israel control who/what enters and leaves the Palestinian State? No
    Should Palestinians in camps have the right to return to Israel? 50% of them should.
    Should Palestinians in camps have the right to return to the Palestinian state? 50% of them should.
    Can the Palestinians pile up arms in their state? Yes. They can have as many weapons as they want. They just cannot use them for anything unless they are attacked.
    Should Palestinian civilians have access to military equipment? No
    Should it be a crime to shoot rockets from the Palestinian state into Israel? Yes
    If a Palestinian shoots a rocket from the Palestinian state, can Israel invade? No. The perpetrator should be punished under Palestinian law.
    Can Israel strike at Palestinians BEFORE they have their state? No. WB and Gaza are under Israeli occupation or control and so Israel is still responsible for what happens there.
    Can Israel attack the Palestinian state if they feel threatened? No
    Can Israel attack the Palestinian state if they acquire nuclear arms? No
    Once a Palestinian state exists, if that state attacks Israel, can Israel respond with overwhelming force -- including nuclear weapons? Yes, absolutely.
    Should Israelis be shipped back to Europe? No
    Should Palestinians be shipped to other Arab states? No[/b]
  6. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    19 Dec '09 16:37
    Originally posted by kmax87
    You are probably right nations tend to establish themselves by force. They tend not to wait for the approval of others in this matter. Well historically at least.


    If the Palestinians have rights to say Israel should not exist, does the converse of that statement also equally apply?
    Sure! Acting on those words is different though.
  7. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    19 Dec '09 23:57 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by spruce112358

    If a Palestinian shoots a rocket from the Palestinian state, can Israel invade? No. The perpetrator should be punished under Palestinian law.
    Bingo. Now you hit the key point.

    What if Palestinian law ether explicitly or implicitly condones shooting rockets into Israel?

    What if a law is on the books prohibiting shooting rockets into Israel, but the law is never enforced?

    What if it is rarely enforced?

    What if the Palestinian government wants to prevent rocket attacks into Israel but doesn't have the power (read: muscle) to do so?

    Apply all the same questions to suicide bombers.

    Answer all those questions and we'll be getting somewhere.
  8. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    20 Dec '09 00:19
    Originally posted by sh76
    Bingo. Now you hit the key point.

    What if Palestinian law ether explicitly or implicitly condones shooting rockets into Israel?

    What if a law is on the books prohibiting shooting rockets into Israel, but the law is never enforced?

    What if it is rarely enforced?

    What if the Palestinian government wants to prevent rocket attacks into Israel but doe ...[text shortened]... me questions to suicide bombers.

    Answer all those questions and we'll be getting somewhere.
    Good post.
  9. 20 Dec '09 02:02
    Should Palestinians in camps have the right to return to Israel? 50% of them should.
    Should Palestinians in camps have the right to return to the Palestinian state? 50% of them should.


    This part I don't understand. Why not, Should people in "camps" be allowed to live wherever they want to? Yes.
  10. Standard member spruce112358
    Democracy Advocate
    20 Dec '09 08:07
    Originally posted by sh76
    Bingo. Now you hit the key point.

    What if Palestinian law ether explicitly or implicitly condones shooting rockets into Israel?

    What if a law is on the books prohibiting shooting rockets into Israel, but the law is never enforced?

    What if it is rarely enforced?

    What if the Palestinian government wants to prevent rocket attacks into Israel but doe ...[text shortened]... me questions to suicide bombers.

    Answer all those questions and we'll be getting somewhere.
    If Israel would allow a sovereign Palestinian state to form that could have commerce with other nations, then the Palestinian government could be held accountable for such laws, the lack thereof, or the lack of enforcement. Until then, the Palestinians can't be held accountable for anything. A government that is powerless to control entry/exit into the country is not a sovereign government.

    The main reason Israel doesn't allow a Palestinian state to form is not that they fear attacks. No Palestinian attack on Israel has done significant damage, and any that did in the future would exact such fearful retribution that it would make Operation Cast Lead look like a school picnic.

    No, the reason Israel doesn't allow a Palestinian state is because they have fanatical orthodox settlers all over the West Bank, and a Palestinian state would probably deport most or all of them.
  11. Standard member spruce112358
    Democracy Advocate
    20 Dec '09 11:11
    Originally posted by PinkFloyd
    Should Palestinians in camps have the right to return to Israel? 50% of them should.
    Should Palestinians in camps have the right to return to the Palestinian state? 50% of them should.


    This part I don't understand. Why not, Should people in "camps" be allowed to live wherever they want to? Yes.
    Since the land area between Israel and WB/Gaza per the pre-1967 borders was about equal, I suggest that Israel claim half the refugees in the camps and the other half go to the new Palestinian state.

    That way Israel gets a flood of refugees, but it is a small flood, and probably not enough to completely change their demographics. These would become Israel citizens and add to the non-Jewish bloc in Israel.
  12. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    20 Dec '09 15:22
    Originally posted by spruce112358
    If Israel would allow a sovereign Palestinian state to form that could have commerce with other nations, then the Palestinian government could be held accountable for such laws, the lack thereof, or the lack of enforcement. Until then, the Palestinians can't be held accountable for anything. A government that is powerless to control entry/exit into the ...[text shortened]... rs all over the West Bank, and a Palestinian state would probably deport most or all of them.
    No, the primary reason is because they fear attacks and it would be much harder to attack terrorist bases in another sovereign state than in occupied territory.

    The reason you gave is a secondary reason; but the appropriate phrase is "probably kill" not "probably deport."
  13. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    20 Dec '09 15:27
    Originally posted by spruce112358
    Since the land area between Israel and WB/Gaza per the pre-1967 borders was about equal, I suggest that Israel claim half the refugees in the camps and the other half go to the new Palestinian state.

    That way Israel gets a flood of refugees, but it is a small flood, and probably not enough to completely change their demographics. These would become Israel citizens and add to the non-Jewish bloc in Israel.
    Why wouldn't the Palestinians in the "refugee camps" (which is a misnomer anyway, but that's another issue) want to stay in this new sovereign Palestinian state? Wouldn't they want to be "ruled" by their brethren than by the evil Israelis who are out to kill them and discriminate against them?

    Or, maybe, just maybe, is it that they realize that Israeli welfare programs and the Israeli economy would allow them to live a life that they would never be able to dream of in this new Palestinian state unless they get a government position and thus are able to secure themselves special privileges at the expense of their brethren?
  14. Standard member spruce112358
    Democracy Advocate
    20 Dec '09 19:08
    Originally posted by sh76
    No, the primary reason is because they fear attacks and it would be much harder to attack terrorist bases in another sovereign state than in occupied territory.

    The reason you gave is a secondary reason; but the appropriate phrase is "probably kill" not "probably deport."
    It would be MUCH easier to deal with a sovereign state.

    Without a sovereign partner to deal with, you have to do everything yourself. You try to send in an airstrike but the rocket team has moved, etc. The pseduo-government puts no pressure on the paramilitary because why should they? They would get nothing out of it.

    But when Gaza is a nation with a sitting parliament, trade with other nations, shopping malls, coffee shops, etc. i.e. people in power with something to lose, you just say -- "Hey, the rocket attacks stop or we carpet bomb. Get it?"

    And like magic, the attacks will stop. But not until there is a Palestinian power structure with something to lose.
  15. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    20 Dec '09 19:12
    Originally posted by spruce112358
    It would be MUCH easier to deal with a sovereign state.

    Without a sovereign partner to deal with, you have to do everything yourself. You try to send in an airstrike but the rocket team has moved, etc. The pseduo-government puts no pressure on the paramilitary because why should they? They would get nothing out of it.

    But when Gaza is a nation wit ...[text shortened]... ttacks will stop. But not until there is a Palestinian power structure with something to lose.
    This makes sense; but it also seems to imply that Israel should just ignore rocket attacks for the indefinite future, which is not reasonable. What do you think Israel should do about the attacks?