Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Joined
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    14 Sep '17 15:32
    Originally posted by @kazetnagorra
    So in my 9/11 scenario, is "partial blame" appropriate or not?
    It's a bad analogy because white collar workers need to work in office buildings despite certain minimal risks but people may not need to drink excessive amounts of alcohol and go alone with strangers.
  2. Joined
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    14 Sep '17 15:37
    Originally posted by @sh76
    By the same token, one can use crimes as teachable moments (as in "don't take the stupid risks that crime victim took" ) if we weren't so terrified of being labelled crime sympathizers.

    Of course it's insensitive to have pallid fun by ripping crime victims. But the OP's question was: "Is it ever right to question the actions of the victim?"

    If used since ...[text shortened]... nner and not taking unnecessary and stupid risks is smart behavior. Telling people that is good.
    "By the same token, one can use crimes as teachable moments"
    and we do. education. psas.
    we tell children not to play with matches. we don't show them johnny who suffered 3rd degrees burn and tell them to mock him because it is unfair to johnny

    "if we weren't so terrified of being labelled crime sympathizers."
    there is a reason for that. it's called empathy it's called not kicking someone while he is down. we developed sayings for that.

    normal humans' first response when seeing a fellow human being in pain is sadness. a desire to help. not an impulse to turn them into a teaching prop.

    "If used sincerely as an educational message, the answer is clearly yes. "
    the answer to "are you a horrible human being"?


    "Facts don't care about snowflake sensibilities."
    i have discovered that most people that use the term "snowflake" are the ones that are appalled that a cashier wished them happy holidays instead of "merry thing that only you celebrate and others might not". that someone tried to teach sex ed in high school. that someone tries to start a discussion on gun control, climate change, separation of church and education/state.

    in short, the term "snowflake" is used precisely by giant snowflakes who just want to treat others like crap while still being offended when others do the same to them.

    "Behaving in a safe manner and not taking unnecessary and stupid risks is smart behavior. "
    yes
    "Telling people that is good"
    if at the right time and place
  3. Joined
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    14 Sep '17 15:40
    Originally posted by @sh76
    === That being the case, when bad things do happen, as they will, it is singularly unhelpful for the old farts of this world to smugly remind us that we have been foolish and taken risks. ===

    I disagree.

    Pointing to crime victims as warnings to others about avoiding engaging in risky behavior is a powerful tool in the educational toolbox.

    As J.R.R. Tolkien said, the burned hand teaches best.
    "As J.R.R. Tolkien said, the burned hand teaches best"
    One's own hand. As in learn from your own mistakes.

    I doubt he advocated to take someone's burned hand and show it to the rest of the world.
  4. Standard membervivify
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    14 Sep '17 15:463 edits
    Originally posted by @sh76
    We blame crime victims all the time and it's appropriate in many cases. If someone falls for one of those Prince of Nigeria email schemes, the first thing anyone will say is that he's a naive idiot. If someone walks around an unsafe neighborhood at 2 AM alone with a conspicuous gold chain showing and cash hanging out of his pockets and gets mugged, is nobody g ...[text shortened]... sh the guilt of the rapist one iota, of course it's right to question the actions of the victim.
    You're missing context. That's what's important.

    **In of itself**, telling a victim of a crime that they should've been wiser isn't the main issue. The problem is that this is often used as a means to get a rapist off the hook, rather than educate the victim.

    I'm sure you're familiar with courtroom cases where a lawyer has tried to blame the victim for her rape, perhaps accusing the woman of arousing sexual interest in the attacker, only to not follow through in the end, leaving the attacker sexually frustrated.

    Because victim-blaming has been used to get attackers off the hook so often, your kind of thinking is dangerous if we remove it from the context of how it's been used to attack victims and absolve rapists of responsibility. Because scumbags exist who use victim-blaming to get off the hook for evil, this makes your thinking quite wrong.
  5. Joined
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    14 Sep '17 15:47
    There are anti-vaxxers whose children have died.

    Of course when i hear about those cases, i think that they are responsible for that. And this is a case of way more direct cause and effect than a rape victim going to a party and getting raped is.

    That being said, i immediately feel pain and sorrow for parents who lost a child. I would never dream of shouting in their face that they are responsible for it, even though they are. I wouldn't invite others to see their pain and "learn" from it.

    if you would, you are a horrible human being.
  6. Germany
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    14 Sep '17 15:50
    Originally posted by @quackquack
    It's a bad analogy because white collar workers need to work in office buildings despite certain minimal risks but people may not need to drink excessive amounts of alcohol and go alone with strangers.
    The WTC towers were a known target for terrorist attacks. Surely people could have worked somewhere else? Maybe instead spend their time sobbing in their basement while wearing a chastity belt?
  7. Joined
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    14 Sep '17 15:50
    Originally posted by @zahlanzi
    "As J.R.R. Tolkien said, the burned hand teaches best"
    One's own hand. As in learn from your own mistakes.

    I doubt he advocated to take someone's burned hand and show it to the rest of the world.
    I doubt JRR Tolkien believed was suggesting that we should not teach fire safety because "a burned hand teaches best". Smart people learn from the mistakes of others. Dumb people only learn after bad things happen to them. We can make people smarter and avoid them being victims by discussing different scenarios.
  8. Joined
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    14 Sep '17 15:55
    Originally posted by @kazetnagorra
    The WTC towers were a known target for terrorist attacks. Surely people could have worked somewhere else? Maybe instead spend their time sobbing in their basement while wearing a chastity belt?
    I think the degree of risk isn't analogous. The whole western world is a potential target for Arab fundamentalist terrorists, but I don't think the solution is to move to a different universe. I think you should take certain precautions when you can and I wouldn't exercise certain freedoms of speech in certain dangerous regions of the world, but of course there is always some risks regardless of what you do.
  9. Joined
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    14 Sep '17 16:09
    Originally posted by @zahlanzi
    There are anti-vaxxers whose children have died.

    Of course when i hear about those cases, i think that they are responsible for that. And this is a case of way more direct cause and effect than a rape victim going to a party and getting raped is.

    That being said, i immediately feel pain and sorrow for parents who lost a child. I would never dream o ...[text shortened]... others to see their pain and "learn" from it.

    if you would, you are a horrible human being.
    One can discuss how refusing to vaccinate leads to increase likelihood of childhood death without shouting in the face of a person who lost a child.
  10. Standard membervivify
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    14 Sep '17 16:395 edits
    Originally posted by @sh76
    === That being the case, when bad things do happen, as they will, it is singularly unhelpful for the old farts of this world to smugly remind us that we have been foolish and taken risks. ===

    I disagree.

    Pointing to crime victims as warnings to others about avoiding engaging in risky behavior is a powerful tool in the educational toolbox.

    As J.R.R. Tolkien said, the burned hand teaches best.
    This is more flawed thinking.

    What you need to understand, is that victim-blaming is an arbitrary, continually receding line:

    ---The woman in the OP shouldn't have been alone with a man she just met at a bar
    ---The woman wasn't alone with a man, but shouldn't have been wearing that outfit
    ---The woman didn't wear a sexy outfit, but shouldn't have been in that neighborhood
    ---The woman wasn't in a bad neighborhood, but shouldn't have been out so late at night
    ---She wasn't out late, but should've worn her burka, which shields her from men's preying eyes
    ---She didn't do anything, but her brother shouldn't have committed that crime (Google "honor rape" )
    ---No one in her family wronged anyone else, but her society didn't "obey" God:

    Deuteronomy 28:15-30

    15 However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come on you and overtake you:
    30 You will be pledged to be married to a woman, but another will take her and rape her.


    The problem with victim-blaming is that the line is drawn wherever it needs to be in order to justify the attacker.
  11. Joined
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    14 Sep '17 16:39
    Originally posted by @vivify
    This is more flawed thinking.

    What you need to understand, is that victim-blaming is an arbitrary, continually receding line:

    ---The woman in the OP shouldn't have been alone with a man she just met at a bar
    ---The woman shouldn't wasn't alone with a man, but shouldn't have been wearing that outfit
    ---The woman wasn't wearing a sexy outfit, but shou ...[text shortened]... ctim-blaming is that the line is drawn wherever it needs to be in order to justify the attacker.
    So you are against educating people on how to avoid being a crime victim?
  12. Standard membervivify
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    14 Sep '17 16:451 edit
    Originally posted by @quackquack
    So you are against educating people on how to avoid being a crime victim?
    No. I'm against victim-blaming.

    I'm not against people who know the victim privately and lovingly educating her on what her mistakes were, after she's received the counseling and help she needs to recover and get justice for the crime.

    I'm against people using victim-blaming to minimize or even absolve the attacker of what they did, or using victim-blaming to shame the one who was raped.
  13. Joined
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    14 Sep '17 16:511 edit
    Originally posted by @vivify
    No. I'm against victim-blaming.

    I'm not against people who know the victim privately and lovingly educating her on what her mistakes were, after she's received the counseling and help she needs to recover and get justice for the crime.

    I'm against people using victim-blaming to minimize or even absolve the attacker of what they did, or using victim-blaming to shame the one who was attacked.
    Pointing out that a victim could have avoided a being a victim, does not absolve the attacker from criminal responsibility. However, it could actually prevent similarly situated potential victims from being victims and potential criminals from being criminals.
  14. Standard membervivify
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    14 Sep '17 17:133 edits
    Originally posted by @quackquack
    Pointing out that a victim could have avoided a being a victim, does not absolve the attacker from criminal responsibility. However, it could actually prevent similarly situated potential victims from being victims and potential criminals from being criminals.
    Don't you think the woman in the OP already knows she could've avoided the attack? You think she's not aware that she could've just stayed home baking cookies and reading the bible?

    Second, there's ALWAYS something she "should've done" to avoid an attack. She should've had more friends around her; she should've shown less leg; she should've drank less; she shouldn't be fornicating; she should've went home earlier; she should've worn her burka. She wasn't obeying God.

    Victim-blaming always finds a way to make rape a woman's fault, regardless of the circumstances.
  15. Standard memberfinnegan
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    14 Sep '17 17:17
    Originally posted by @quackquack
    Pointing out that a victim could have avoided a being a victim, does not absolve the attacker from criminal responsibility. However, it could actually prevent similarly situated potential victims from being victims and potential criminals from being criminals.
    Pointing out that a victim could have avoided being a victim, ... could actually prevent ...criminals from being [convicted]
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