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Debates Forum

  1. Joined
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    26 Feb '17 14:012 edits
    http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/rachel-dolezal-is-nearly-homeless-on-food-stamps-and-still-white/ar-AAnpKcp?li=BBnbfcL

    Does anyone remember Dolezale? She is the person who got caught lying that she was Black when she really was white so that she could get the financial perks and have the NAACP hire her?. Now she seems at the end of her rope, no job and no prospects. No one wants anything more to do with her.

    How is she any different, though, than someone born of one gender who identifies with another gender? Is it not the same issue?

    Also, if she seeks medical help, should they give her a skin transplant?
  2. Joined
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    26 Feb '17 14:042 edits
    Elizabeth Warren also claims to be of another race, that is, part Indian. However, she is yet to prove this.

    Why race matters is beyond me, but it does matter to people like Elizabeth Warren and Dolezale, enough so that she made it public that she was part Indian.

    If it is a lie, does she suffer from the same condition as Dolzale?
  3. Standard membervivify
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    26 Feb '17 16:06
    Dolezal also lied about being a victim of hate crimes, and even faked such acts by sending herself hate mail. Had she simply lied about her race because she felt like she belonged, I'd have no problem with it.

    Still, it's far from the worst thing a human being has ever done. The reaction to her was ludicrous. Her parents are especially terrible for subjecting their own daughter to public humiliation; they were the ones who brought this to light.
  4. Standard membershavixmironline
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    26 Feb '17 16:13
    Originally posted by whodey
    http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/rachel-dolezal-is-nearly-homeless-on-food-stamps-and-still-white/ar-AAnpKcp?li=BBnbfcL

    Does anyone remember Dolezale? She is the person who got caught lying that she was Black when she really was white so that she could get the financial perks and have the NAACP hire her?. Now she seems at the end of her rope, no job and ...[text shortened]... not the same issue?

    Also, if she seeks medical help, should they give her a skin transplant?
    You have no idea about trans-genderism, do you?

    Or reality.
  5. Standard membervivify
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    26 Feb '17 16:47
    Originally posted by whodey
    Remember Dolzale?

    anyone remember Dolezale?
    How do you screw her name up twice, when it's correctly spelled in the link?
  6. Zugzwang
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    26 Feb '17 21:556 edits
    Originally posted by vivify
    Dolezal also lied about being a victim of hate crimes, and even faked such acts by sending herself hate mail. Had she simply lied about her race because she felt like she belonged, I'd have no problem with it.

    Still, it's far from the worst thing a human being has ever done. The reaction to her was ludicrous. Her parents are especially terrible for s ...[text shortened]... bjecting their own daughter to public humiliation; they were the ones who brought this to light.
    I have no objection to Dolezal misrepresenting herself as an African-American as long as
    she made no attempt to profit personally from it. If she identified so deeply with African-Americans
    that she yearned to identify herself as one, I accept that. In another case that I mentioned
    in an earlier thread, I criticized a white American Jewish man who suddenly reclassified
    himself as 'Hispanic' (even though he had no known Hispanic heritage or association
    and could speak no Spanish) only to take advantage of affirmative action and get a job
    ahead of some real minority applicants.

    Korla Pandit (nee John Roland Redd in 1921 USA) was a light-skinned black American who
    successfully passed, professionally (as a musician) and socially (marrying a white woman),
    as an 'exotic' immigrant (Hindu Brahmin) from India until his death in 1998. His real
    background was not publicly exposed until after his death, and his children apparently
    were unwilling to believe it. Korla Pandit had acquired a legal document certifying the
    fiction that he was born in India to an Indian (Hindu Brahmin) father and a French mother.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korla_Pandit

    Given his almost complete ignorance of authentic Indian cultures and languages, how did
    Korla Pandit succeed in deceiving Americans for so long that he was a real Indian 'wise man'?
    Because almost all Americans were similarly ignorant. Korla Pandit always wore a turban,
    which he wrongly explained was obligatory for a Hindu Brahmin. Shortly after the
    Oklahoma City bombing, however, he, for once, briefly removed his turban out of fear that
    he could be misidentified as a Muslim and attacked by Americans. On the few occasions
    when he was approached by real Indians, his handlers could have explained his refusal
    to speak any Indian languages to them by claiming that he had taken a vow of silence.
    Actually, he did not know how to speak any of the languages of India. Early in his career
    as an 'exotic' act, Korla Pandit was advised by his white promoter to avoid speaking in public.
    One reason was that he spoke English with a mild, yet noticeable, black American accent,
    and even an ignorant white audience might wonder how a real Indian had acquired it.

    William Ellsworth Robinson, a white American, successfully impersonated (in yellowface),
    a Chinese magician called 'Chung Ling Soo'. He died when a dangerous trick went wrong.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chung_Ling_Soo

    "After Chung Ling Soo's death, the public was shocked to learn that he was not Chinese.
    Soo's true identity was largely known among professional magicians. A year before Soo's
    death, English magician Will Goldston commented in an interview with Magician Monthly
    that the public did not question Soo's identity because" [he appealed to its prejudices]."

    I doubt that many real Chinese, in contrast to white people, were deceived by 'Chung Ling Soo'.

    While it has long abandoned the racist practice of blackface, to this day Hollywood continues
    the racist practice of yellowface to some extent, with major characters of East Asian heritage
    being played by white (or Latino) actors in 'yellowface' make-up.

    To this day, the Western media propagates many absurd ignorant stereotypes about many non-Western peoples.
    I expect that many, if not most, Westerners prefer to believe these stereotypes even if they were told the facts.
  7. Standard membervivify
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    26 Feb '17 22:311 edit
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Korla Pandit (nee John Roland Redd in 1921 USA) was a light-skinned black American who
    successfully passed, professionally (as a musician) and socially (marrying a white woman),
    as an 'exotic' immigrant (Hindu Brahmin) from India until his death in 1998. His real
    background was not publicly exposed until after his death, and his children apparently
    w ...[text shortened]... y, if not most, Westerners prefer to believe these stereotypes even if they were told the facts.
    If you're trying to draw a parallel between Dolezal and those who made a mockery of an ethnic group, you're dead wrong. Dolezal was a champion for black rights, engaging in marches, teaching African and African American art history, and was very involved in the Black Lives Matter movement. Do we now ignore her passion and accomplishments to advance black civil rights because she wasn't actually black?

    Dolezal never seemed like a woman using a black identity for personal gain. And, unlike the men you posted about, not even the blacks she was constantly surrounded by seemed to think she was anything but black. Dolezal fit right in because her motives seemed genuine, unlike the faux-Indian man you posted about.

    Dolezal should be chastised for her lie, but shouldn't become an outcast. MLK wanted a world where people are judged by their "content of their character" and not the color of their skin. I think Dolezal's character far outshines her obvious flaw.
  8. Zugzwang
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    26 Feb '17 22:432 edits
    Originally posted by vivify
    If you're trying to draw a parallel between Dolezal and those who made a mockery of an ethnic group, you're dead wrong. Dolezal was a champion for black rights, engaging in marches, teaching African and African American art history, and was very involved in the Black Lives Matter movement. Do we now ignore her passion and accomplishments to advance black ci ...[text shortened]... r" and not the color of their skin. I think Dolezal's character far outshines her obvious flaw.
    " Do we now ignore her passion and accomplishments to advance black civil rights because she wasn't actually black?"
    --Vivify

    Personally, I would not, though it seems to me that not all African Americans agree in their opinions of her.

    Let's suppose that there's a prominent activist for women's rights who was 'outed' as a biological male,
    who had not completed a transgender process. I can understand that she may identify
    so deeply with women that her chromosomes or genitals may not matter to her, but I
    know that many feminists would feel offended and 'betrayed' by her.

    I cited two cases (a black American and a white American) of people successfully posing as Asians
    to show that it could be easily done in a racist society full of ignorant stereotypes about Asians.
    Actually, I have some sympathy for Korla Pandit (who suffered from racism in the USA).
    I have much less sympathy for the white American posing as the Chinese magician.
  9. Zugzwang
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    26 Feb '17 23:09
    'Commentary', a extremely pro-Israeli right-wing American Jewish magazine, sponsored
    a personal attack (one of many) against Edward Said, falsely accusing him of lying about
    having been born in 1935 Jerusalem and therefore arguing that he's not a real Palestinian
    and hence unqualified to speak on behalf of the Palestinians in criticizing Israel.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Said

    "Edward Wadie Said was born on 1 November 1935, to Hilda Said and Wadie Said, a
    businessman in Jerusalem, then part of British-governed Mandatory Palestine (1920–48).
    [16] Wadie Said was a Palestinian man who soldiered in the U.S. Army component of the
    American Expeditionary Forces (1917–19), commanded by General John J. Pershing, in
    the First World War (1914–18). Afterwards, that war-time military service earned
    American citizenship to Said père and his family. Edward’s mother, Hilda Said was born
    Lebanese and raised in Nazareth, Palestine."
  10. Zugzwang
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    09 Mar '17 00:01
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Dolezal

    Rachel Dolezal has continued her campaign to maintain her brand.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/07/us/dolezal-activist-identifies-as-black-african-name.html?_r=0

    "Activist Who Identified Herself as Black Takes an African Name"

    "Rachel Dolezal, the white woman who came to national attention in 2015 for
    masquerading as an African-American while serving as an N.A.A.C.P. leader, has
    changed her name to one with African roots. According to court papers filed in Spokane
    County, Wash., a name-change petition by Ms. Dolezal was approved last year.
    She is now Nkechi Amare Diallo.

    It was a search for a new job that helped her arrive at a new name.
    “My name had become poison in the business world,” "
  11. Zugzwang
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    09 Mar '17 00:12
    Originally posted by vivify
    If you're trying to draw a parallel between Dolezal and those who made a mockery of an ethnic group, you're dead wrong. Dolezal was a champion for black rights, engaging in marches, teaching African and African American art history, and was very involved in the Black Lives Matter movement. Do we now ignore her passion and accomplishments to advance black ci ...[text shortened]... r" and not the color of their skin. I think Dolezal's character far outshines her obvious flaw.
    "I think Dolezal's character far outshines her obvious flaw."
    --Vivify

    Many, if not most, real African-Americans have a much lower opinion than Vivify of Rachel Dolezal.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/13/us/rachel-dolezal-naacp-president-accused-of-lying-about-her-race.html

    "Black or White? Woman’s Story Stirs Up a Furor"

    "Blacks and liberals accused Ms. Dolezal of an offensive impersonation, part of a long
    history in which whites appropriated black heritage when it suited them. Jonathan
    Capehart wrote in The Washington Post, “Blackface remains highly racist, no matter how
    down with the cause a white person is.” Others noted that for her, unlike black people,
    casting off the advantages of whiteness was a choice. “I wonder what race Rachel would
    become if she got stopped by the police?” the author Terry McMillan wrote on Twitter."

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2015/06/12/the-damage-rachel-dolezal-has-done/?utm_term=.c8b1786b9fa4

    "The damage Rachel Dolezal has done"

    "But Dolezal’s mother nails it when she told the Spokesman-Review newspaper,
    “Her effectiveness in the causes of the African-American community would have been so
    much more viable, and she would have been more effective if she had just been honest
    with everybody.”"

    https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/18/opinion/charles-blow-the-delusions-of-dolezal.html

    "The Delusions of Rachel Dolezal"

    "This is about privilege, deceitful performance and a tortured attempt to avoid truth and
    confession by co-opting the language of struggle, infusing labyrinthine logic with the
    authority of the academy, and coat-tailing very real struggles of transgender people and
    transracial adoptees to defend one’s deception.

    This is a spectacular exercise in hubris, narcissism and deflection.
    And we have been distracted from real conversation about real things in order to try to
    contextualize a false life based on a false premise. For a moment, blackface seemed to
    matter more than actual black lives."

    "Dolezal’s performance of blackness may have been born of affinity, but it was based on
    a lie — one she has never sufficiently recanted — and her feeble attempts to use
    professorial language and faux-intellectual obfuscations only add insult to the cultural injury."
  12. Zugzwang
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    09 Mar '17 00:17
    http://www.salon.com/2015/12/15/of_course_rachel_dolezal_isnt_black_her_sympathetic_comeback_media_tour_proves_it/

    "Of course Rachel Dolezal isn’t black: Her sympathetic comeback media tour proves it:
    Inescapable white privilege grants Dolezal 2 new sensitive profiles urging us to empathize with her struggles"

    "Ta-Nehisi Coates has noted that “there are no racists in America,” at least, not
    according to those who believe themselves to be white Americans. Those same whites
    would find it difficult to believe that two stories written with lovely prose and
    accompanying images—stories that capture the fascinating life of a woman on the long
    road to both motherhood and perhaps certain self-realization—could be racist, or at
    least reflections of such. But what else can you call these pleas to explore more white
    privilege (including the privilege to, apparently, choose your race)? What else do you
    call this drive to simultaneously uplift a white woman who is either a lifelong liar, or a
    troubled product of fanatics (who, perhaps, went on to become fanatical in her own
    way), while denouncing the many black men and women who spoke out against her?
    Is it still journalism? Or is all this nuance for Rachel Dolezal merely white privilege and
    more racist storytelling pretending to be something else, and asking that we respect it
    because of supposed good intentions? Perhaps, like Dolezal, these publications and
    their writers mean well, but that doesn’t make them less deserving of our criticism."
  13. Unknown Territories
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    09 Mar '17 00:21
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    I have no objection to Dolezal misrepresenting herself as an African-American as long as
    she made no attempt to profit personally from it. If she identified so deeply with African-Americans
    that she yearned to identify herself as one, I accept that. In another case that I mentioned
    in an earlier thread, I criticized a white American Jewish man who su ...[text shortened]... y, if not most, Westerners prefer to believe these stereotypes even if they were told the facts.
    I mean no significant disrespect, but as a suggestion, perhaps you would possibly consider a TL/DR portion, preferably at the bottom of your very thorough posts, most ideally a single-sentence encapsulation of the purest, most salient thrust of your reason for posting.

    Just as a consideration only, truly.
  14. Zugzwang
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    09 Mar '17 00:442 edits
    I doubt that any white reader here (such as Vivify) has ever heard of this story.

    In fact, a non-black woman already has been widely admired by African-Americans (including Angela Davis)
    for her long support of and intimate involvement in campaigns for African-American rights
    and power, including in about their most 'militant' forms of struggle. In contrast to Rachel
    Dolezal, however, Grace Lee Boggs never pretended that she was an African American woman.
    And, unlike a white woman, Grace Lee Boggs experienced lifelong racism just for being herself.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_Lee_Boggs

    Grace Lee Boggs (1915-2015), a daughter of Chinese immigrants, was most known
    for her many decades of passionate activism within African-American communities.
    She embraced African-Americans (including marrying one) in every way to such an extent
    that her identity--certainly her political identity--seemed much more African-American than Asian-American.

    Grace Lee earned a PhD in philosophy from Bryn Mawr College. (She later published her
    translations of Karl Marx's German essays into English.) But racism and sexism blocked
    her from an academic job in the 1940s USA, impelling her to take a low-paying job in a library.
    She collaborated with famous intellectuals such C.L.R. James and Raya Dunayevskaya.
    Grace Lee Boggs was a Marxist, and one who worked toward a revolution in the USA.
    She supported some of the most 'militant' African American organizations (including black nationalists).
    Sometimes she was the only non-black member of some black separatist groups.

    While Grace Lee Boggs was a passionate activist for African-American rights, she was
    *not* an activist for Asian-American rights. Her great energy was reserved for fighting
    for African-Americans above all, with perhaps 'trickle-down' benefits for Asian-Americans.
    Some modern Asian-American activists wish that she had done more to fight the overwhelming
    marginalization of Asian-Americans, which has led to anti-Asian racism being widely condoned
    at every level of American political and cultural life.

    Grace Lee Boggs was a feminist, but she never joined mainstream American feminist organizations,
    which seemed dominated by 'White Feminists'. I expect that she was uncomfortable with
    the prevailing racism within American feminism. If Grace Lee Boggs were alive today, I
    suspect that she would join 'Black Lives Matter' marches but not the 2017 women's march.

    Would Grace Lee Boggs's life have been different if she had been white or black?
    If she had been white, then it seems more likely that she would have been hired (probably
    by a women's college) for an academic job after she had completed her PhD in philosophy.
    If she had been black, then it seems more likely that she could have risen further to a
    leadership position in the African American organizations to which she had long belonged.
    As an ethnic Chinese woman, however, Grace Lee Boggs was more marginalized in the USA.

    I would submit that most African Americans would regard Grace Lee Boggs (if they have heard
    of her) as much more admirable--certainly much more honest--than Rachel Dolezal, even
    though the US media would pay much more attention to Rachel Dolezal than to Grace Lee Boggs.
  15. Zugzwang
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    09 Mar '17 00:46
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    I mean no significant disrespect, but as a suggestion, perhaps you would possibly consider a [b]TL/DR portion, preferably at the bottom of your very thorough posts, most ideally a single-sentence encapsulation of the purest, most salient thrust of your reason for posting.

    Just as a consideration only, truly.[/b]
    I don't write on Twitter because I don't reduce my thoughts to extremely terse packaging.
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