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  1. Zugzwang
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    07 Sep '16 21:34
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/01/renee-rabinowitz-sue-israeli-airline-el-al-orthodox-gender-discrimination

    "Retired Lawyer Sues Israeli Airline After She was Asked to Move Seat"
    --Harriet Sherwood (1 April 2016)

    Renee Rabinowitz (age 81), a religious Jew who keeps a kosher home
    (and is a rabbi's widow) is suing El Al after the airline put persistent
    pressure upon her to change her seat after another passenger,
    an ultra-Orthodox Jewish man, objected to sitting next to a woman.
    (El Al apparently likes to accommodate such objections by ultra-Orthodox Jews.)

    The ultra-Orthodox Jewish man claimed that the Torah forbid him to sit next a woman.
    She pointed out that the Torah says no such thing. He conceded that
    she was right, but he still insisted that his religious beliefs prevented
    him from sitting next to a woman. So she had to change her seat
    Why didn't he change his seat? Why was the onus placed upon her?

    Renee Rabinowitz reluctantly agreed to change her seat because she
    would have felt too uncomfortable sitting next to a misogynist on a long flight.
    She believes, however, that it's just as wrong for a passenger to object
    to sitting next to her for being a woman as it would be for her being a Jew.

    Should El Al be able to relocate female passengers if some male
    passengers object on religious grounds to being seated next to them?
  2. Unknown Territories
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    07 Sep '16 21:48
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/01/renee-rabinowitz-sue-israeli-airline-el-al-orthodox-gender-discrimination

    "Retired Lawyer Sues Israeli Airline After She was Asked to Move Seat"
    --Harriet Sherwood (1 April 2016)

    Renee Rabinowitz (age 81), a religious Jew who keeps a kosher home
    (and is a rabbi's widow) is suing El Al after the airline ...[text shortened]... e passengers if some male
    passengers object on religious grounds to being seated next to them?
    Depends.
    Were undergarments worn?
  3. Joined
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    08 Sep '16 01:10
    Not a direct response; indeed a different religion; but travelling around Western Anatolia a couple of years ago, I was struck by the fact that Turkish bus companies routinely ensure that solo male travellers are seated next to other men, while female travellers are seated together. If you try to book a Turkish bus ticket online, you will often find that the seating plan designates male, female and couples' seats. Apparently this is even true on domestic flights.

    British-born writer Alev Scott (whose mother is Turkish, and who lives in Istanbul) comments that "In a dolmuĊŸ (a Turkish shared taxi-minibus, its name literally meaning “stuffed” because it is usually full to bursting point), it is an unspoken convention that women share one row (usually the back) and men share the other(s), in this most intimate of public conveyances."
  4. Zugzwang
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    08 Sep '16 01:23
    Originally posted by Teinosuke
    Not a direct response; indeed a different religion; but travelling around Western Anatolia a couple of years ago, I was struck by the fact that Turkish bus companies routinely ensure that solo male travellers are seated next to other men, while female travellers are seated together. If you try to book a Turkish bus ticket online, you will often find that t ...[text shortened]... row (usually the back) and men share the other(s), in this most intimate of public conveyances."
    Some places have some public transport reserved only for female passengers (or perhaps young children).
  5. Joined
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    08 Sep '16 12:18
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/01/renee-rabinowitz-sue-israeli-airline-el-al-orthodox-gender-discrimination

    "Retired Lawyer Sues Israeli Airline After She was Asked to Move Seat"
    --Harriet Sherwood (1 April 2016)

    Renee Rabinowitz (age 81), a religious Jew who keeps a kosher home
    (and is a rabbi's widow) is suing El Al after the airline ...[text shortened]... e passengers if some male
    passengers object on religious grounds to being seated next to them?
    No, if you have sexist religious beliefs and do not want to sit next to someone of a particular gender you should be required to purchase the seat next to you.
  6. Standard membersh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
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    08 Sep '16 12:591 edit
    I know this is going to be impossible to digest or maybe even understand for many people on this board, but the ultra-Orthodox refusals to sit next to women is not about sexism or misogyny. It's about an obsession with modesty. Many ultra-Orthodox Jews (not just in Israel, by the way) have (literally) a religious obsession with de-sexualizing everything. Both genders dress extremely modestly (you don't need to trust me for that one, Google images should do nicely) and inter-gender contact between non-family members is kept to an incredible minimum.

    Personally, I regard it as silly, almost childish, extremism and it embarrasses me and drives me crazy when I see it. But it's quite benign and has nothing to do with being misogynistic (on the contrary, the over-sexualization of women that we're used to in the West is arguably much more misogynistic), Should Elal accommodate this sort of thing? Well, it's a matter of dollars and cents. Airlines give their elites perks because they get more money from them. If Elal thinks it's a good business decision to pacify the hareidi market by indulging their nonsense (which doesn't really hurt anybody), that's capitalism and it's their decision.

    If it turns out that their conduct is illegal under applicable law, of course (which is what this lawsuit will test), then that's another matter.
  7. Joined
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    08 Sep '16 13:10
    Originally posted by sh76
    I know this is going to be impossible to digest or maybe even understand for many people on this board, but the ultra-Orthodox refusals to sit next to women is not about sexism or misogyny. It's about an obsession with modesty. Many ultra-Orthodox Jews (not just in Israel, by the way) have (literally) a religious obsession with de-sexualizing everything. Both g ...[text shortened]... er applicable law, of course (which is what this lawsuit will test), then that's another matter.
    Do you believe an airline passenger should have the right to dictate the gender of the person who sits next to them?
  8. Standard membersh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
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    08 Sep '16 13:292 edits
    Originally posted by quackquack
    Do you believe an airline passenger should have the right to dictate the gender of the person who sits next to them?
    Obviously not, and that you ask the question shows either that you don't know what a "right" is or think that I don't. Or, perhaps, your question was rhetorical and you were making some sort of point.

    If the latter, some clarification of what that point is might be in order.
  9. Joined
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    08 Sep '16 14:30
    Originally posted by sh76
    Obviously not, and that you ask the question shows either that you don't know what a "right" is or think that I don't. Or, perhaps, your question was rhetorical and you were making some sort of point.

    If the latter, some clarification of what that point is might be in order.
    I simply asked what your opinion on this issue was. I did not question whether you knew what a right was and I did not assume I knew your opinion.
  10. Subscriberno1marauder
    Humble and Kind
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    08 Sep '16 17:28
    Originally posted by sh76
    I know this is going to be impossible to digest or maybe even understand for many people on this board, but the ultra-Orthodox refusals to sit next to women is not about sexism or misogyny. It's about an obsession with modesty. Many ultra-Orthodox Jews (not just in Israel, by the way) have (literally) a religious obsession with de-sexualizing everything. Both g ...[text shortened]... er applicable law, of course (which is what this lawsuit will test), then that's another matter.
    I guess it didn't physically hurt Renee Rabinowitz but it was an inconvenience and annoyance to her. The question why didn't Elal simply move the man to another seat is a valid one. Why disturb one customer for the benefit of another's personal beliefs?
  11. Joined
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    08 Sep '16 17:45
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    I guess it didn't physically hurt Renee Rabinowitz but it was an inconvenience and annoyance to her. The question why didn't Elal simply move the man to another seat is a valid one. Why disturb one customer for the benefit of another's personal beliefs?
    People should not be allowed to dictate the sexual orientation, race, religion or gender of the person who sits next to them in public places. I simply do not believe this preference should be accommodated.
  12. Subscriberno1marauder
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    08 Sep '16 17:51
    Originally posted by quackquack
    People should not be allowed to dictate the sexual orientation, race, religion or gender of the person who sits next to them in public places. I simply do not believe this preference should be accommodated.
    (Shrug) If a person wants to move their seat for such a reason and there is another empty seat available, let 'em.
  13. Joined
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    08 Sep '16 18:14
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    (Shrug) If a person wants to move their seat for such a reason and there is another empty seat available, let 'em.
    If there were no extra seats would you move other passengers to accommodate their anti-women preference.
  14. Standard membersh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
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    08 Sep '16 18:22
    Originally posted by quackquack
    I simply asked what your opinion on this issue was. I did not question whether you knew what a right was and I did not assume I knew your opinion.
    Okay, then sorry I misinterpreted it.

    It's definitely not a "right" to control who sits next to you on a plane. But it's certainly your right to make a request of the airline and to take your business elsewhere if they don't accede to it.
  15. Standard membersh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
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    08 Sep '16 18:271 edit
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    I guess it didn't physically hurt Renee Rabinowitz but it was an inconvenience and annoyance to her. The question why didn't Elal simply move the man to another seat is a valid one. Why disturb one customer for the benefit of another's personal beliefs?
    It's possible that the only other available seat(s) was next to a woman, and so moving the man would have given rise to the same issue, but moving Ms. Rabinowitz would not.

    It's also possible that Elal tells their flight staff to accommodate the Hareidi men either because they know that otherwise they might make a ruckus and delay the flight, costing the airline money or because the Hareidi market is big enough that Elal can't afford to antagonize its members.

    Any of those are commercially viable reasons.

    It's also the province of the government to outlaw this sort of thing, which could be construed as discrimination based on gender, if it is able to do so through the democratic processes. If it has not, then Elal has to make its own calculations based on all factors involved.
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