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Debates Forum

  1. Joined
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    28 Jul '15 07:301 edit
    Is the quote below a real quote of Cicero of Rome? I received this in an e-mail with a response shown in the e-mail as well.

    ===================================
    So... what have we learned in 2,070 years?

    "The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance." Cicero - 55 BC
    ===================================

    The next 2 words was the answer given in the e-mail for the question of Cicero.

    "Evidently nothing!"

    What do you all think about the economic state of the United States?
  2. Standard memberbill718
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    28 Jul '15 08:443 edits
    Originally posted by KingOnPoint
    Is the quote below a real quote of Cicero of Rome? I received this in an e-mail with a response shown in the e-mail as well.

    ===================================
    So... what have we learned in 2,070 years?

    "The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempere ...[text shortened]...

    "Evidently nothing!"

    What do you all think about the economic state of the United States?
    There are some Important points you make here, and one that everyone seems hell bent on turning a blind eye to: For every $1.00 spent on social welfare programs in America, $1.90 is spent on corporate welfare. The taxpayers are not only subsidizing those who will not work, they are giving away billions to really big corporations just because they are big.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/taxanalysts/2014/03/14/where-is-the-outrage-over-corporate-welfare/
    http://reclaimdemocracy.org/corporate-welfare-tax-breaks-subsidies/
  3. Joined
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    28 Jul '15 12:45
    Originally posted by KingOnPoint
    Is the quote below a real quote of Cicero of Rome? I received this in an e-mail with a response shown in the e-mail as well.

    ===================================
    So... what have we learned in 2,070 years?

    "The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempere ...[text shortened]...

    "Evidently nothing!"

    What do you all think about the economic state of the United States?
    No according to

    http://www.snopes.com/quotes/cicero.asp
  4. Germany
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    28 Jul '15 12:46
    The Roman Empire lasted for approximately 1500 more years after Cicero's (supposed) comments, which is probably a lot longer than the United States will exist as a nation state.
  5. Standard membersh76
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    28 Jul '15 13:102 edits
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    The Roman Empire lasted for approximately 1500 more years after Cicero's (supposed) comments, which is probably a lot longer than the United States will exist as a nation state.
    Did you mean 500?

    Anyway, while the US certainly has problems, comparisons to Rome are silly. It's a different world with very different geopolitical attitudes.

    Moreover, I don't expect the Mounties from Canada to smash through the northern gate as did the Visigoths in Rome.

    Edit: Unless you're counting the Byzantine Empire as an offshoot of the Romans...
  6. Germany
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    28 Jul '15 13:34
    Originally posted by sh76
    Did you mean 500?

    Anyway, while the US certainly has problems, comparisons to Rome are silly. It's a different world with very different geopolitical attitudes.

    Moreover, I don't expect the Mounties from Canada to smash through the northern gate as did the Visigoths in Rome.

    Edit: Unless you're counting the Byzantine Empire as an offshoot of the Romans...
    The Byzantine Empire was not an "offshoot" of the Roman Empire. It was the Roman Empire and was referred to as such by themselves as well as their contemporaries. The name "Byzantine Empire" did not appear until long after the fall of Constantinople in 1453 AD.
  7. Standard memberfinnegan
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    28 Jul '15 13:451 edit
    Originally posted by KingOnPoint
    Is the quote below a real quote of Cicero of Rome? I received this in an e-mail with a response shown in the e-mail as well.

    ===================================
    So... what have we learned in 2,070 years?

    "The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempere ...[text shortened]...

    "Evidently nothing!"

    What do you all think about the economic state of the United States?
    Well I do not think Cicero was referring to social welfare programmes for the poor. By all means, Roman crowds were held at bay with "bread and circuses" but that was easily afforded until after Rome was set aside in favour of Constantinople as the seat of the empire.

    In a slave economy, there was no real question of work not getting done or slaves opting for a life of dependency, was there? Really?

    No Cicero was pointing to the condition of the plutocracy, an extraordinarily affluent minority who enjoyed the immense benefits of empire while contributing less and less to its needs. I recall one concern was that in Italy, land that was once farmed by proud Roman citizens was increasingly becoming the property of wealthy landowners and farmed by slaves. Retiring Roman soldiers had to be given land further and further away from Rome and even from the Italian peninsula.

    However, as noted already, his concerns were premature - by centuries. What sustained the Roman Empire was, of course, the extension of its boundaries and techniques of government that incorporated local elites into the ruling class at the expense, of course, of the subject peoples. As long as other people could be found to actually do the work of empire, and especially the military work, then the plutocracy could continue.

    So with this in mind, do the Anglo Saxon economies have a class of idle rich enjoying a growing and excessive share of the wealth generated in a slave economy? Does their continued affluence depend critically on a continually expanding economy? What happens when expansion ends (not least because it is stifled by their greed but also because it is not sustainable)?
  8. Standard membersh76
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    28 Jul '15 14:042 edits
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    The Byzantine Empire was not an "offshoot" of the Roman Empire. It was the Roman Empire and was referred to as such by themselves as well as their contemporaries. The name "Byzantine Empire" did not appear until long after the fall of Constantinople in 1453 AD.
    A Roman Empire without Rome is a nonstandard use of the term "Roman Empire."

    I would say that the Byzantine Empire is to Rome roughly as the United States is to England.

    Edit: People have referred to the US as an Anglo-Saxon power.

    See, e.g.,

    https://www.foreignaffairs.com/reviews/review-essay/2008-01-01/anglo-saxon-attitudes

    "To describe the United Kingdom and the United States as Anglo-Saxon countries is to describe not their ethnic makeup but their culture -- to underline how it differs from that of the world at large and even from that of the rest of the West."

    Second edit: Finn just also apparently did the same thing in the post above.
  9. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    28 Jul '15 14:48
    Constantinople was formally declared the capitol of the Roman Empire around 300 AD. If the USA were equivalent King George would have moved here and declared Washington D.C. the capitol of the British Empire.
  10. Joined
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    28 Jul '15 15:18
    Originally posted by finnegan
    Well I do not think Cicero was referring to social welfare programmes for the poor. By all means, Roman crowds were held at bay with "bread and circuses" but that was easily afforded until after Rome was set aside in favour of Constantinople as the seat of the empire.

    In a slave economy, there was no real question of work not getting done or slaves op ...[text shortened]... on ends (not least because it is stifled by their greed but also because it is not sustainable)?
    Cicero wasn't referring to anything because he didn't say or write it. See the snopes citation above.
  11. Standard memberZzgloo
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    28 Jul '15 15:30
    USA is not as dominant,nor as strong as what Rome was in its time.
  12. Joined
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    28 Jul '15 15:331 edit
    Originally posted by KingOnPoint
    Is the quote below a real quote of Cicero of Rome? I received this in an e-mail with a response shown in the e-mail as well.

    ===================================
    So... what have we learned in 2,070 years?

    "The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempere ...[text shortened]...

    "Evidently nothing!"

    What do you all think about the economic state of the United States?
    It's more like, what do you think of the economic condition of the world?

    It's on the brink of collapse.

    Other than that it's doing fine. 😛

    Soon these same people who created this crisis will have a fantastic plan to fix it all.

    I can hardly wait!! 😵
  13. Germany
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    28 Jul '15 15:38
    Originally posted by sh76
    A Roman Empire without Rome is a nonstandard use of the term "Roman Empire."

    I would say that the Byzantine Empire is to Rome roughly as the United States is to England.

    Edit: People have referred to the US as an Anglo-Saxon power.

    See, e.g.,

    https://www.foreignaffairs.com/reviews/review-essay/2008-01-01/anglo-saxon-attitudes

    "To describe the U ...[text shortened]... st of the West."

    Second edit: Finn just also apparently did the same thing in the post above.
    For a discussion, see:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire#Nomenclature
  14. Joined
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    28 Jul '15 15:39
    Originally posted by Zzgloo
    USA is not as dominant,nor as strong as what Rome was in its time.
    If there had been more contact with Imperial China, such as competition for resources, Rome might not have been so dominant. One can speculate that the experience that Alexander the Great had when venturing eastward might have caused Rome to set limits on its own eastward expansion.
  15. Joined
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    28 Jul '15 15:47
    Originally posted by JS357
    If there had been more contact with Imperial China, such as competition for resources, Rome might not have been so dominant. One can speculate that the experience that Alexander the Great had when venturing eastward might have caused Rome to set limits on its own eastward expansion.
    It's interesting you bring up China.

    http://www.silverbearcafe.com/private/11.11/chinacollapse.html
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