Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Standard membersh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
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    28 Sep '17 20:10
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    "...irreligious Hitler's Germany ..."
    --Sh76

    Germany was not as 'irreligious' as Sh76 assumes. The reality was more complex.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany

    "A census in May 1939, six years into the Nazi era[2] and after the annexation of mostly
    Catholic Austria into Germany, indicates that 54% considered themselves Pro ...[text shortened]... ehrmacht's men marched to war with this slogan inscribed
    on their belt buckles: "Gott mit uns."
    I didn't mean that Germany was irreligious. I meant the Germany belonging to the irreligious Hitler, not the irreligious Germany belonging to Hitler.

    Nazi ideology was was based on the Hegelian belief that great armed nations were entitled to do whatever their strength allowed them to do and that conventional morality didn't apply to them. Christian ideas of kindness and benevolence has no place in Hitler's philosophy, even if he may have made temporary alliances with Christians and the Church.
  2. Zugzwang
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    28 Sep '17 20:252 edits
    Originally posted by @sh76
    I didn't mean that Germany was irreligious. I meant the Germany belonging to the irreligious Hitler, not the irreligious Germany belonging to Hitler.

    Nazi ideology was was based on the Hegelian belief that great armed nations were entitled to do whatever their strength allowed them to do and that conventional morality didn't apply to them. Christian ideas o ...[text shortened]... itler's philosophy, even if he may have made temporary alliances with Christians and the Church.
    I interpreted the 'irreligious' in Sh76's unclear (at best) "irreligious Hitler's Germany" as
    referring to Germany, with 'Hitler' being added to indicate during which historical period.

    Compare "Hitler's Germany" to "Luther's Germany". I don't believe that it's most plausible
    to argue that "Luther's Germany" should refer only to the Germans who were Lutherans.
    I believe that it's more plausible that it refers to the Germany of Luther's time.

    And, given the context of Sh76 disputing Sonhouse, it makes no sense to me that Sh76
    would concede that Germany was a generally religious society led by an irreligious Hitler.
    So I concluded that Sh76 was claiming that the Germany of Hitler's time was irreligious.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler

    "Hitler, attempting to appeal to the German masses during his political campaign and
    leadership, sometimes made declarations in support of religion and against atheism ...
    Hitler publicly claimed he believed in Christianity and an active God, and in one speech,
    he stated that he held Jesus in high esteem as an "Aryan fighter" who struggled against
    Jewry and Jewish materialism. While a small number of writers accept these publicly
    stated views as genuine expressions of his spirituality,[12] the vast majority believe that
    Hitler was skeptical of religion generally, but recognized that he could only be elected
    and preserve his political power if he feigned a commitment to and belief in Christianity,
    which the overwhelming majority of Germans believed in."

    I believe that Hitler professed to be a Christian only on account of political expediency.
    I don't know if Hitler in private was an atheist or still held an unchurched belief in some God.
  3. Subscriberno1marauder
    Humble and Kind
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    28 Sep '17 20:44
    Originally posted by @eladar
    You didn't when the Muslim Brotherhood was in control of Egypt.
    You are welcome to present some evidence that elected officials of the Muslim Brotherhood "execute[d] Christians for being Christians."
  4. Subscriberno1marauder
    Humble and Kind
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    28 Sep '17 20:54
    Originally posted by @kazetnagorra
    With the election of a president who relentlessly attacked the U.S. constitution during the election campaign, I think we can safely conclude that the principles of the U.S. constitution aren't valued highly by the American populace in general.
    What percentage of Americans do you imagine agree with Roy Moore's belief that being a Muslim should disqualify someone from being in the US Congress?
  5. Germany
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    28 Sep '17 21:03
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    What percentage of Americans do you imagine agree with Roy Moore's belief that being a Muslim should disqualify someone from being in the US Congress?
    If I had to guess, I'd say around 20-40%. Was it polled?

    What percentage of Americans would agree with (for example) the statement that law enforcement should be able to target Muslims?
  6. Subscriberno1marauder
    Humble and Kind
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    28 Sep '17 21:141 edit
    Originally posted by @kazetnagorra
    If I had to guess, I'd say around 20-40%. Was it polled?

    What percentage of Americans would agree with (for example) the statement that law enforcement should be able to target Muslims?
    Not many: The latest poll finds fully 70 percent of Americans oppose the use of racial profiling in police departments, while 25 percent support this practice. Breaking these numbers down further, 48 percent strongly disapprove, 22 percent somewhat disapprove, while 12 percent somewhat approve and 13 percent strongly approve.

    http://reason.com/poll/2014/10/14/poll-70-of-americans-oppose-racial-profi

    Your claims regarding what most US citizens think are exaggerated and wrong.

    KN: I think we can safely conclude that the principles of the U.S. constitution aren't valued highly by the American populace in general.

    No, we can't, not if we wish to be accurate.
  7. Germany
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    28 Sep '17 21:21
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    Not many: The latest poll finds fully 70 percent of Americans oppose the use of racial profiling in police departments, while 25 percent support this practice. Breaking these numbers down further, 48 percent strongly disapprove, 22 percent somewhat disapprove, while 12 percent somewhat approve and 13 percent strongly approve.

    http://reason.com/poll/2 ...[text shortened]... lued highly by the American populace in general.

    No, we can't, not if we wish to be accurate.
    Racism is much less accepted in the U.S. than the more specific Islamophobia. I would expect the figure to be significantly higher than (the already quite high) 52% not strongly disapproving in the case of Muslims.
  8. Subscriberno1marauder
    Humble and Kind
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    28 Sep '17 21:271 edit
    Originally posted by @kazetnagorra
    Racism is much less accepted in the U.S. than the more specific Islamophobia. I would expect the figure to be significantly higher than (the already quite high) 52% not strongly disapproving in the case of Muslims.
    It's quite an illogical stretch to lump "somewhat disapprove" with those who actually approve.

    If that is the only way you can rationalize your prior statement, so be it.

    By a wide majority, US citizens rejected Trump's proposal for even a temporary ban on Muslim entry into the country: http://www.politico.com/story/2015/12/cbs-poll-muslims-216670

    Of course, one may lament that even a 1/4 or 1/3 of the population take such position, but still your conclusion i.e. "that the principles of the U.S. constitution aren't valued highly by the American populace in general" is unwarranted.
  9. Germany
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    28 Sep '17 21:34
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    It's quite an illogical stretch to lump "somewhat disapprove" with those who actually approve.

    If that is the only way you can rationalize your prior statement, so be it.

    By a wide majority, US citizens rejected Trump's proposal for even a temporary ban on Muslim entry into the country: http://www.politico.com/story/2015/12/cbs-poll-muslims-216670 ...[text shortened]... the U.S. constitution aren't valued highly by the American populace in general" is unwarranted.
    Surely someone who values the principles of the constitution greatly would strongly disapprove of the violation thereof.
  10. Behind the scenes
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    30 Sep '17 14:361 edit
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    The soon to be Republican Senator from Alabama once wrote an article claiming that Muslims should not be allowed in the US House of Representatives. http://www.wnd.com/2006/12/39271/

    Judge Roy also seems unaware that the oath (or affirmation) required in the Constitution does not end with the words "So help me God" Article II, Section 1, Paragraph 8 ...[text shortened]... ligious tests" as a qualification for public office in the United States. Article VI, Section 3.
    Though I'm sorely tempted to brand Alabama as a state full of of knuckle dragging, KKK loving, brainless rednecks who marry their cousins, I'll simply say that I'm not surprised. Diversity, acceptance, and cosmopolitan thinking are not traits of the typical Alabama voter.
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