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Debates Forum

  1. 04 Feb '13 17:10
    http://conservativevideos.com/2013/02/baker-faces-state-investigation-after-refusing-to-make-same-sex-couples-wedding-cake/

    There are legal, moral and ethical issues here. How much does each weigh, as well as whether state statutes override Constitutional protections.
  2. Standard member bill718
    Enigma
    04 Feb '13 18:36
    Originally posted by normbenign
    http://conservativevideos.com/2013/02/baker-faces-state-investigation-after-refusing-to-make-same-sex-couples-wedding-cake/

    There are legal, moral and ethical issues here. How much does each weigh, as well as whether state statutes override Constitutional protections.
    I can see lot's of billable hours for lawyers over this one.
  3. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    04 Feb '13 21:31
    Originally posted by normbenign
    http://conservativevideos.com/2013/02/baker-faces-state-investigation-after-refusing-to-make-same-sex-couples-wedding-cake/

    There are legal, moral and ethical issues here. How much does each weigh, as well as whether state statutes override Constitutional protections.
    I think the letter is absurd. They can force him to not discriminate against customers on the basis of sexual orientation, but they can't affirmatively force him to create a new good that he doesn't otherwise create. He doesn't make wedding cakes with 2 women on it. Deal with it. Go somewhere else. He's not refusing to sell to them; he's just refusing to make what they ask of him. I think that trying to force him to make something he doesn't want to make to accommodate them is unconscionable.
  4. 04 Feb '13 21:58 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by sh76
    I think the letter is absurd. They can force him to not discriminate against customers on the basis of sexual orientation, but they can't affirmatively force him to create a new good that he doesn't otherwise create. He doesn't make wedding cakes with 2 women on it. Deal with it. Go somewhere else. He's not refusing to sell to them; he's just refusing to make w ...[text shortened]... force him to make something he doesn't want to make to accommodate them is unconscionable.
    I don't really see the distinction. Why is there a fundamental difference between not selling something and not producing something you in an equivalent situation (i.e. same production costs and price) would?

    As a symbolic gesture I don't object to banning discrimination based on gender, creed, sexual preference, etc. although in practise moronic bigots will find a way, law or no law. My mom once worked for a recruiting agency, which used coded language to tell businesses whether a potential employee was an immigrant or not (they would be told whether they "had a bicycle" ).
  5. 04 Feb '13 22:08
    The government can force him to do anything.
  6. 06 Feb '13 01:10
    Originally posted by Eladar
    The government can force him to do anything.
    While you state the truth, that doesn't address the ethical, moral, and legal issues.
  7. 06 Feb '13 10:28
    Originally posted by normbenign
    http://conservativevideos.com/2013/02/baker-faces-state-investigation-after-refusing-to-make-same-sex-couples-wedding-cake/

    There are legal, moral and ethical issues here. How much does each weigh, as well as whether state statutes override Constitutional protections.
    he shouldn't be forced to sell that cake. he should be allowed to close his shop and go out of bussiness.


    seriously, why is this up for discussion? a doctor cannot refuse to treat gays. so why should the baker be any different? why would a baker be ok to put penises on a cake for a bachelorette (straight) party but not put 2 little figures both with boobs on top of it?
  8. 06 Feb '13 10:33
    Originally posted by sh76
    I think the letter is absurd. They can force him to not discriminate against customers on the basis of sexual orientation, but they can't affirmatively force him to create a new good that he doesn't otherwise create. He doesn't make wedding cakes with 2 women on it. Deal with it. Go somewhere else. He's not refusing to sell to them; he's just refusing to make w ...[text shortened]... force him to make something he doesn't want to make to accommodate them is unconscionable.
    but he does make wedding cakes for straight couples

    so the most sensible solution here is to take 2 couples, throw away the grooms (or the brides as the case may be) and stick them on top of the cake. even bill them for both the figurine sets (probably 10$ extra). there is no issue, other than the man's bigotry
  9. Subscriber Wajoma
    Die Cheeseburger
    06 Feb '13 12:31
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    but he does make wedding cakes for straight couples

    so the most sensible solution here is to take 2 couples, throw away the grooms (or the brides as the case may be) and stick them on top of the cake. even bill them for both the figurine sets (probably 10$ extra). there is no issue, other than the man's bigotry
    You've got it Z, let the homos buy two cakes and throw two of the cake characters away or better yet let them make their own cake.

    The fact is every human being has a right to decide who they deal with and on what terms as long as the other party is also in agreeance, this means they also have a right to choose who not to deal with, whether they discriminate on the basis of shoe size, if they're wearing lycra cycle shorts, drink xxxx, or are left handed.

    That is a right, and for the most part millions of different people discriminate daily in a million different ways, some rational and some not so rational. Occasionally the busybodies and control freaks like to stick their nose in and violate that right, might even be one or two showing their ugly side on this thread already.
  10. 06 Feb '13 12:41
    Business is business. Personal issues should not arise.


    I'd bake them a cake happily. With a big cherry on the top.

    I'd get out my most expensive brochure.


  11. 06 Feb '13 12:41
    Originally posted by bill718
    I can see lot's of billable hours for lawyers over this one.
  12. 06 Feb '13 14:06
    Originally posted by normbenign
    http://conservativevideos.com/2013/02/baker-faces-state-investigation-after-refusing-to-make-same-sex-couples-wedding-cake/

    There are legal, moral and ethical issues here. How much does each weigh, as well as whether state statutes override Constitutional protections.
    I just thought I'd throw this in. From their web site:

    "Welcome to Sweet Cakes! Are you looking for a wedding cake or for ANY occasion? Our cakes are custom made and designed to fit you. When coming to Sweet Cakes you can get a cake that will be sure to be a memorable part of your special day! We hope our website is helpful to you. We do cakes for all occasions. All of our cakes are made from scratch using the best ingredients; NO BOX CAKES! All real stuff! Our cakes are always fresh and moist. "

    Also, from their Wedding Cakes Gallery page: "We design your cake the way you want it, colors, theme, and different types of decorations."

    http://www.sweetcakesweb.com/
  13. Donation mwmiller
    RHP Member No.16
    06 Feb '13 15:29
    In my travels I have seen signs prominently displayed in various places of business that clearly state:

    "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone."

    Is that not a valid right?
  14. 06 Feb '13 15:37
    Originally posted by mwmiller
    In my travels I have seen signs prominently displayed in various places of business that clearly state:

    "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone."

    Is that not a valid right?
    Not really.

    https://www.legalzoom.com/us-law/equal-rights/right-refuse-service
  15. 06 Feb '13 16:01
    Years ago if you went to a club or a bar,
    a doorman could refuse you entry just
    because he didn't like the look of you.

    But these days people who stand on doors
    have to be registered and licensed and have to
    give a valid reason for refusing you entry.

    Likewise a barman has to give the person a valid reason
    as to why he will not serve them.

    In rural areas of Ireland we have this small group of people
    who call themselves travellers. They claim to be an ethnic
    minority living among the rest of us.

    I am not blaming them all but some of them cause trouble
    and damage. The pubs know about the equality law so they
    have devised an intelligence network to forewarn them of the
    arrival of any travellers.

    So rather than be caught up with legislation they just close the pub.
    If the traveller wants a reason why the pub is closed then the owner
    of the bar just tells them that there has been a family bereavement.
    The other customers in the bar he tells them are family friends
    consoling those over their loss.