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Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. 26 Dec '17 20:31
    Originally posted by @phranny
    First of all I am not an "ardent supporter of Israel and Zionism. Yes, I was raised Jewish and I am a U.S. citizen. I am appalled by Trump declaring the U.S. embassy will be in Jerusalem. I support the Palestinians having their own separate state. I do not support the destruction of the State of Israel.
    I already was aware that Phranny's a less extreme supporter than Quackquack of Israel.
    But Phranny's relatively mild criticisms of Israel's government (led by Netanyahu) don't
    come close to the demands for justice expressed by the Palestinians or even by some
    of their Jewish sympathizers today.

    Does Phranny acknowledge that Israel committed a fundamental injustice to the Palestinians
    in 1948 as well as in 1967?

    Does Phranny support Jewish Voice for Peace (which the 'moderate' Sh76 opposes)?
    Does Phranny support the BDS movement toward Israel?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycott,_Divestment_and_Sanctions

    "The Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions Movement (also known as the BDS Movement)
    is a global campaign attempting to increase economic and political pressure on Israel
    to end what it describes as violations of international law. The BDS campaign calls for
    "various forms of boycott against Israel until it meets its obligations under international law".[1]
    The stated goals of BDS are:[2] the end of Israel's occupation and settler colonization
    of Palestinian land and the Golan Heights, full equality for Arab-Palestinian citizens of
    Israel, and acknowledgement of the right of return of Palestinian refugees."
  2. 26 Dec '17 20:48
    Originally posted by @kmax87
    I don't think my record shows hurling abuse or lies. What you may indeed be seeing is disappointment dressed with resentment, that your desire to cause vexation and loathing also produces an intolerance for the views that support and uphold the downtrodden, the oppressed and the marginalized.

    Whereas you have the skill to argue for those who have not bee ...[text shortened]... n the causes of the dis-empowered as nothing more than a bunch of shrill goose stepping harpies!
    A common criticism by condescending white men (I recall the Kmax87 claimed to have
    been classified as 'Coloured' in apartheid South Africa) is to put down non-white people
    and women for not serving their criticisms of racism and sexism with enough sugar and smiles.
    If only the bitter medicine of criticism were sweetened enough, then smug white men who
    benefit from continuing racism and sexism would supposedly take the message to heart.

    History has shown that's nonsense. Women did not gain the right to vote by presenting
    themselves as stereotypically subserviently feminine in order to appease sexist men.
    I would point out, during his lifetime, Martin Luther King Jr was widely condemned by
    white Americans for supposedly being too 'radical', too 'confrontational'. too 'offensive'
    to represent African Americans (unlike, say, a more docile Booker T Washington had been).
    I hardly need point out how Malcolm X was perceived--with hate--by most white Americans.

    From Ossie Davis's eulogy at Malcolm X's funeral:
    "There are those who will consider it their duty, as friends of the Negro people, to tell
    us to revile him [Malcolm X], to flee, even from the presence of his memory, to save
    ourselves by writing him out of the history of our turbulent times. ... They will say that he is
    of hate – a fanatic, a racist – who can only bring evil to the cause for which you struggle!
    ...
    Malcolm was our manhood, our living, black manhood! This was his meaning to his people.
    And, in honoring him, we honor the best in ourselves. ... And we will know him then for
    what he was and is – a Prince – our own black shining Prince! – who didn’t hesitate to die,
    because he loved us so.”
    --Ossie Davis (27 February 1965)
  3. 27 Dec '17 06:13 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by @athousandyoung
    Wisdom as defined by who? What if your society told you homosexuality was unwise?
    I'd like wisdom to be defined by the combination of rational thought and emotional experience, not by appeals to ancient sages.

    China enthusiastically discouraged childbirth by implementing a one-child policy for many years, suggesting that Confucian precepts encouraging fecundity are not sufficient to define and explain whatever negative attitudes to homosexuality may exist in China.
  4. Subscriber kmax87
    corrupt irregardless
    27 Dec '17 15:36
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    A common criticism by condescending white men (I recall the Kmax87 claimed to have
    been classified as 'Coloured' in apartheid South Africa) is to put down non-white people
    and women for not serving their criticisms of racism and sexism with enough sugar and smiles.
    If only the bitter medicine of criticism were sweetened enough, then smug white men who ...[text shortened]... nce! – who didn’t hesitate to die,
    because he loved us so.”
    --Ossie Davis (27 February 1965)
    Fair enough. You want to inhabit the mindset of civil rights activists of 50 years ago, but the world has moved on.

    Whatever your background, whatever your gripe against the dominant paradigm, people are still people, and any opportunity to communicate with any person in my humble opinion, should be considered a privilege.

    Anyhow, your gifts of frustration, race baiting, envy, guilt shaming and smug self righteousness are yours to keep, I choose not to accept them.

    Fly, fly, be free!
  5. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Do ya think?
    27 Dec '17 19:38 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by @teinosuke
    I'd like wisdom to be defined by the combination of rational thought and emotional experience, not by appeals to ancient sages.

    China enthusiastically discouraged childbirth by implementing a one-child policy for many years, suggesting that Confucian precepts encouraging fecundity are not sufficient to define and explain whatever negative attitudes to homosexuality may exist in China.
    China doesn’t care what you think. Duty is what matters. You do what you are told for the good of the nation. While China today does not penalize homosexuality twenty five years ago it was both illegal and defined as a mental illness.

    But fine. What if your society is Christian or Muslim and again says homosexuality is unwise? Remember we are talking about the values the society encourages and discourages not what you think matters. You say you think society should sacrifice your happiness for some societal definition of wisdom but then you try to define wisdom the way you want. That’s not how social values work unless society values individual desires and happiness.
  6. 27 Dec '17 19:58 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @kmax87
    Fair enough. You want to inhabit the mindset of civil rights activists of 50 years ago, but the world has moved on.

    Whatever your background, whatever your gripe against the dominant paradigm, people are still people, and any opportunity to communicate with any person in my humble opinion, should be considered a privilege.

    Anyhow, your gifts of frust ...[text shortened]... d smug self righteousness are yours to keep, I choose not to accept them.

    Fly, fly, be free!
    Kmax87 has a disingenuous record of attempting to minimize racism in Australia.
    As he has done before, Kmax87 panders to the many more overt racist trolls in this forum.

    My point is that non-white anti-racist activists (including Martin Luther King Jr) never were
    perceived *during most of their lifetimes* as 'saintly' or 'moderate' by most white people.
    For much of his life, Nelson Mandela was vilified as a 'terrorist' who allegedly hated white people.
  7. 27 Dec '17 20:05
    Originally posted by @athousandyoung to Teinosuke
    China doesn’t care what you think. Duty is what matters. You do what you are told for the good of the nation. While China today does not penalize homosexuality twenty five years ago it was both illegal and defined as a mental illness.

    But fine. What if your society is Christian or Muslim and again says homosexuality is unwise? Re ...[text shortened]... want. That’s not how social values work unless society values individual desires and happiness.
    "While China today does not penalize homosexuality twenty five years ago it was both
    illegal and defined as a mental illness.."
    --AThousandYoung

    So what? Going back a little further in time, male homosexual acts (lesbian acts never
    were illegal) were illegal in England and Wales until 1967 and in Scotland until 1981.
    Unlike the Sinophobic troll AThousandYoung, I doubt that Teinosuke believes there's a vast eternal
    moral difference in the UK having decriminalised homosexuality earlier than China (in 1997).
  8. 27 Dec '17 21:13
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    So what? Going back a little further in time, male homosexual acts (lesbian acts never were illegal) were illegal in England and Wales until 1967 and in Scotland until 1981.
    Unlike the Sinophobic troll AThousandYoung, I doubt that Teinosuke believes there's a vast eternal moral difference in the UK having decriminalised homosexuality earlier than China (in 1997).
    Of course, on that basis, the moral gulf would have to be even vaster and more eternal between Britain and Turkey, because Turkey decriminalised homosexuality in 1858. That proves (or at least, it must do so to AThousandYoung's satisfaction) that Turkish culture is more individualistic than Britain; and it explains why it's so much easier to be gay in 21st-century Turkey than in 21st-century Britain!
  9. 27 Dec '17 21:19
    Originally posted by @athousandyoung
    You say you think society should sacrifice your happiness for some societal definition of wisdom but then you try to define wisdom the way you want. That’s not how social values work unless society values individual desires and happiness.
    I wasn't talk about arbitrary social notions of duty, either in an Asian or a Western context. I was simply arguing that the pursuit of wisdom is more admirable than the pursuit of happiness. And part of wisdom is questioning the basis for one's own individual desires.
  10. 27 Dec '17 21:42
    Originally posted by @teinosuke
    Of course, on that basis, the moral gulf would have to be even vaster and more eternal between Britain and Turkey, because Turkey decriminalised homosexuality in 1858. That proves (or at least, it must do so to AThousandYoung's satisfaction) that Turkish culture is more individualistic than Britain; and it explains why it's so much easier to be gay in 21st-century Turkey than in 21st-century Britain!
    Teinosuke, you were brave and honest enough to come out as a gay man here.
    Sadly, it seems to me, people like AThousandYoung seem to presume that being
    a gay man must be your complete identity rather than an important part of it.

    The 'Oprah' of Chinese television is JIn Xing, a transgender woman from the Korean ethnic minority.
    She lives with her German husband and their adopted children in Shanghai.
    She (a former PLA colonel) is also known for her conservative patriotic views.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jin_Xing

    My point is that China's changing and much more diverse than AThousandYoung's cherished stereotypes.
    It amazes me that some Westerners who never have watched any recent Chinese films
    or television still presume that they must be full of Maoist propaganda.
  11. 27 Dec '17 22:42
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    Teinosuke, you were brave and honest enough to come out as a gay man here.
    Sadly, it seems to me, people like AThousandYoung seem to presume that being
    a gay man must be your complete identity rather than an important part of it.

    The 'Oprah' of Chinese television is JIn Xing, a transgender woman from the Korean ethnic minority.
    She lives with her G ...[text shortened]... recent Chinese films
    or television still presume that they must be full of Maoist propaganda.
    Well quite; there are plenty of people who seem to assume that as a gay man I have some kind of duty to be an Islamophobe, which I find very dispiriting.

    Of course, even as early as the 1980s, Chinese films were no longer full of Maoist propaganda. Indeed, friends who were old enough to have experienced the discovery of Fifth Generation cinema first hand tell me that they felt at that time that China's was artistically the finest cinema in the world.
  12. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Do ya think?
    28 Dec '17 19:02
    Originally posted by @teinosuke
    Of course, on that basis, the moral gulf would have to be even vaster and more eternal between Britain and Turkey, because Turkey decriminalised homosexuality in 1858. That proves (or at least, it must do so to AThousandYoung's satisfaction) that Turkish culture is more individualistic than Britain; and it explains why it's so much easier to be gay in 21st-century Turkey than in 21st-century Britain!
    You did specify a society that values wisdom over individual happiness...that naturally implies sacrificing peoples’ individual desires for a socially defined ‘wisdom’. Doesn’t it?
  13. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Do ya think?
    28 Dec '17 19:09 / 6 edits
    Originally posted by @teinosuke
    Of course, on that basis, the moral gulf would have to be even vaster and more eternal between Britain and Turkey, because Turkey decriminalised homosexuality in 1858. That proves (or at least, it must do so to AThousandYoung's satisfaction) that Turkish culture is more individualistic than Britain; and it explains why it's so much easier to be gay in 21st-century Turkey than in 21st-century Britain!
    Turkish values have changed obviously. Indeed I would say that the Ottomans in their sunset years were willing to sacrifice societal ideals of Islamic wisdom for their individual pleasures. (of course these laws didn’t apply to their slaves which somewhat undermines your point). In fact the Ottomans broke other Islamic rules because they wanted to be like the Eastern Romans. That was what they valued not Islamic wisdom and not freedom for all.

    YouTube : Suleiman

    Modern Turkey prefers wisdom over individual freedom and that’s why it’s harder to be gay there now.

    If society values allowing you to define wisdom for yourself, isn’t that the same as society valuing individuality? You imply it is somehow different.

    The American pursuit of happiness is quite consistent with the pursuit of wisdom...if that’s what makes you happy. But if it makes you unhappy then you can choose not to pursue wisdom. That’s what individuality means.
  14. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Do ya think?
    28 Dec '17 19:17
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    Teinosuke, you were brave and honest enough to come out as a gay man here.
    Sadly, it seems to me, people like AThousandYoung seem to presume that being
    a gay man must be your complete identity rather than an important part of it.

    The 'Oprah' of Chinese television is JIn Xing, a transgender woman from the Korean ethnic minority.
    She lives with her G ...[text shortened]... recent Chinese films
    or television still presume that they must be full of Maoist propaganda.
    Um no that is only one of two things Teinsosuke has told us makes him happy. I have a harder time imagining a country that bans Japanophiles but would Teinosuke prefer to suppress his Japanophilia because society says it is unwise? I don’t see why anyone would want their society to have such priorities.
  15. 28 Dec '17 19:32 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by @athousandyoung
    Um no that is only one of two things Teinsosuke has told us makes him happy. I have a harder time imagining a country that bans Japanophiles but would Teinosuke prefer to suppress his Japanophilia because society says it is unwise? I don’t see why anyone would want their society to have such priorities.
    First of all, I believe that Teinosuke has spent time in the People's Republic of China rather
    than shunning it, as the Sinophobic troll AThousandYoung presumably would recommend.
    I don't know if Teinosuke experienced any particular difficulties in China.

    The Chinese have deep suspicion and anger toward Japan on account of Japan's nearly
    genocidal record (which Westerners often apparently condone) of aggression in China
    and Japan's government evident inadequate or insincere efforts to express remorse.
    (The Koreans--North and South--tend to have attitudes like the Chinese toward Japan.)
    Japan's government is headed by a hard right-wing Japanese nationalist.

    Individual Japanese live and work in China without any particular problems, apart from being
    restrained from expressing approval (if that's a problem) of Japan's wars against China.
    I suspect that Germans living and working in Israel are 'suppressed' from saying that Hitler was right.