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Debates Forum

  1. 13 Jun '11 19:01
    Lawrence O'Donnell - "We are all socialists."

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsx_GMj4k08
  2. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    13 Jun '11 19:03
    I don't really know.
  3. Standard member wittywonka
    Chocolate Expert
    13 Jun '11 20:59
    Originally posted by Kunsoo
    Lawrence O'Donnell - "We are all socialists."

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsx_GMj4k08
    Haven't there been studies showing that despite a majority of Americans'
    association with "conservatism" or the Republican party, a supermajority of
    Americans have opinions central to a more liberal ideology?
  4. Donation rwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    13 Jun '11 21:09
    Originally posted by Kunsoo
    Lawrence O'Donnell - "We are all socialists."

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsx_GMj4k08
    Socialism is where the workers control the means of production. Anything which fails to fulfill that criteria is not socialism.
  5. 13 Jun '11 21:27
    Originally posted by wittywonka
    Haven't there been studies showing that despite a majority of Americans'
    association with "conservatism" or the Republican party, a supermajority of
    Americans have opinions central to a more liberal ideology?
    "Conservatives" Are Single-Largest Ideological Group

    PRINCETON, NJ -- Thus far in 2009, 40% of Americans interviewed in national Gallup Poll surveys describe their political views as conservative, 35% as moderate, and 21% as liberal. This represents a slight increase for conservatism in the U.S. since 2008, returning it to a level last seen in 2004. The 21% calling themselves liberal is in line with findings throughout this decade, but is up from the 1990s.

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/120857/conservatives-single-largest-ideological-group.aspx
  6. Standard member wittywonka
    Chocolate Expert
    13 Jun '11 21:30
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    "Conservatives" Are Single-Largest Ideological Group

    PRINCETON, NJ -- Thus far in 2009, 40% of Americans interviewed in national Gallup Poll surveys describe their political views as conservative, 35% as moderate, and 21% as liberal. This represents a slight increase for conservatism in the U.S. since 2008, returning it to a level last seen in 2004 ...[text shortened]... 990s.

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/120857/conservatives-single-largest-ideological-group.aspx
    You can think you're "conservative" all you want to, but traditionally "raising taxes
    for the wealthiest Americans"--i.e., making the tax system more progressive--has
    not been part of conservatives' proposed policy platforms.

    I'm saying that many people self-adhere to the label "conservative" despite the fact
    that, on many issues, they take positions traditionally seen as "liberal."
  7. 13 Jun '11 21:37
    Socialism is anything and anyone the Republicans happen not to like. In the 60's through the 80's it was Communism.
  8. 13 Jun '11 21:40
    Originally posted by wittywonka
    You can think you're "conservative" all you want to, but traditionally "raising taxes
    for the wealthiest Americans"--i.e., making the tax system more progressive--has
    not been part of conservatives' proposed policy platforms.

    I'm saying that many people self-adhere to the label "conservative" despite the fact
    that, on many issues, they take positions traditionally seen as "liberal."
    Exactly. Republicans have done a great job selling their own brand and trashing the Liberal brand. But on individual issues the country actually leans left.
  9. 13 Jun '11 21:53 / 1 edit
    Socialism is a collection of ideologies which can differ significantly in their means (although they all imply that at least a significant part of the economy is publicly owned), but the goal is generally to reduce inequality (of opportunity), both in terms of income and often also in terms of gender, race, religion, etc.
  10. 13 Jun '11 22:00
    Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper
    Exactly. Republicans have done a great job selling their own brand and trashing the Liberal brand. But on individual issues the country actually leans left.
    But on individual issues the country actually leans left.


    You have data to back that up ? Or, is this your opinion ?
  11. Standard member wittywonka
    Chocolate Expert
    13 Jun '11 22:20 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    But on individual issues the country actually leans left.


    You have data to back that up ? Or, is this your opinion ?
    Here are some links after a quick search. Some are more quantitative, some more qualitative.

    http://mediamatters.org/reports/progmaj/

    http://open.salon.com/blog/kemstone/2011/01/08/memo_to_bill_daley_most_americans_are_liberal

    http://www.miller-mccune.com/politics/america-not-as-politically-conservative-as-you-think-26845/

    PS - I don't think these links are current enough to reflect changes in opinion since
    the recession or since the rise of Tea Party conservatism. With that said, the
    trends shown in the links (especially the first one) seem pretty steady.
  12. 13 Jun '11 22:26 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    But on individual issues the country actually leans left.


    You have data to back that up ? Or, is this your opinion ?
    Of course. The country still leans pro-choice, with only a small percent thinking abortion should be illegal in all circumstances.

    A majority of Americans favor gay marriage and gays serving openly in the military.

    A majority of Americans favor taxing the wealthy more as a way to fix the deficit.

    Marijuana is closing in fast with support for legalizing it neck and neck with those against it.

    Obviously the country supports entitlements like Medicare and Social Security.

    Which of these do you doubt?
  13. 13 Jun '11 22:37
    Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper
    Of course. The country still leans pro-choice, with only a small percent thinking abortion should be illegal in all circumstances.

    A majority of Americans favor gay marriage and gays serving openly in the military.

    A majority of Americans favor taxing the wealthy more as a way to fix the deficit.

    Marijuana is closing in fast with suppor ...[text shortened]... country supports entitlements like Medicare and Social Security.

    Which of these do you doubt?
    Your examples seem to describe the extreme end of conservatism. One can identify themselves as a conservative and not necessarily be for or against your examples.

    As in the link i provided of the 2009 gallup pole,

    To measure political ideology, Gallup asks Americans to say whether their political views are very conservative, conservative, moderate, liberal, or very liberal. As has been the case each year since 1992, very few Americans define themselves at the extremes of the political spectrum. Just 9% call themselves "very conservative" and 5% "very liberal."
  14. Standard member wittywonka
    Chocolate Expert
    13 Jun '11 22:57 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by utherpendragon
    Your examples seem to describe the extreme end of conservatism. One can identify himself as a conservative and not necessarily be for or against your examples.
    I would agree that, philosophically, the "conservative movement" as a whole probably does not support restricting access to abortion without exception.

    With that said, my impression is that the standard "conservative movement" as a whole endorses cutting taxes for the rich, privatizing entitlements, and preventing homosexuals from serving openly in the military, all of which, among others, are opposed by the majority of Americans.

    Of course, you can be alligned with the mainstream "conservative movement" while disagreeing with specific points of ideology and still legitimately call youself a "conservative," but based on various opinion polls, I think people must not realize historical or contextual implications in describing themselves as "conservative" when as a whole Americans disagree with many traditionally "conservative" positions.
  15. 13 Jun '11 23:33
    Originally posted by wittywonka
    I would agree that, philosophically, the "conservative movement" as a whole probably does not support restricting access to abortion without exception.
    Which is actually quite funny, considering most who generally oppose abortion say they consider it "murder."

    Obviously if you make an exception for rape victims and such you really don't consider it murder.