Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Joined
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    16 Sep '16 23:462 edits
    Originally posted by vivify
    Isn't this an ironic thread for a Christian to make?
    I think that human being all have an innate desire to be ruled over. That is how we are designed.

    Unfortunately, mankind is a terrible substitute.

    God made us free but it is man who seeks to enslave us.

    Because secular humanists don't believe in a God, they naturally look to people like Barak Obama instead. I think that is why all atheists I know put their trust and hope in big government..
  2. Unknown Territories
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    17 Sep '16 01:391 edit
    Originally posted by vistesd
    Principally, I am convinced, he speaks to those who are concerned about what Bill O’Reilly lamented as the breakdown of the “white, male, Christian power structure” in 2007 (I would add “heterosexual” today). That does not comprise all of his supporters, obviously—but, underneath the dog-whistle rhetoric and the clever "<shrug> I don’t know” deniability, th ...[text shortened]... e biggest and the greatest and the most spectacular.” Donald Trump, The Art of the Deal.
    Given Trump's penchant for doing exactly opposite of what he is blamed for being, thinking by virtue of his actions over the last four decades, i.e., hiring minorities--- before there were quotas--- on the basis of merit instead of tax credit, I suggest you are projecting onto Trump something which clearly has no seat in reality.
    I've not heard a single word from his lips which anyone could construe as anything other than his stated intentions, i.e., enforcing the rule of law as it relates to borders.
    Instead of characterizing his opinion, perhaps it would be more efficacious to quote--- in context, of course--- his offending remarks.
  3. Joined
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    17 Sep '16 02:49
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    Given Trump's penchant for doing [b]exactly opposite of what he is blamed for being, thinking by virtue of his actions over the last four decades, i.e., hiring minorities--- before there were quotas--- on the basis of merit instead of tax credit, I suggest you are projecting onto Trump something which clearly has no seat in reality.
    I've not he ...[text shortened]... perhaps it would be more efficacious to quote--- in context, of course--- his offending remarks.[/b]
    Nonsense. Trump is a Republican and wants to build a border wall so that makes him a racist.

    Nuff said.
  4. Hmmm . . .
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    17 Sep '16 03:404 edits
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    Given Trump's penchant for doing [b]exactly opposite of what he is blamed for being, thinking by virtue of his actions over the last four decades, i.e., hiring minorities--- before there were quotas--- on the basis of merit instead of tax credit, I suggest you are projecting onto Trump something which clearly has no seat in reality.
    I've not he ...[text shortened]... perhaps it would be more efficacious to quote--- in context, of course--- his offending remarks.[/b]
    Did you never read or hear his comments from which I quoted in my post? Is your Google broken?

    “When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.” (Presidential announcement speech, June 16, 2015)

    “The Mexican Government is forcing their most unwanted people into the United States. They are, in many cases, criminals, drug dealers, rapists, etc.” (July 6, 2015) [Forcing?!]

    Well,"some" are (assumed) to be good people, but "many" are not? How many? How many compared to citizens? What is the "assumed" ratio of the "some" to the "many? (The man is a master of weasel words.) “Data on immigrants and crime are incomplete, but a range of studies show there is no evidence immigrants commit more crimes than native-born Americans. In fact, first-generation immigrants are predisposed to lower crime rates than native-born Americans. (The Center for Immigration Studies, which advocates for restrictive immigration laws, has a detailed report showing the shortfalls of immigrant crime data.)” . . .

    “Trump’s repeated statements about immigrants and crime underscore a common public perception that crime is correlated with immigration, especially illegal immigration. But that is a misperception; no solid data support it, and the data that do exist negate it. Trump can defend himself all he wants, but the facts just are not there.”

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/07/08/donald-trumps-false-comments-connecting-mexican-immigrants-and-crime/

    “When Donald and Ivana came to the casino, the bosses would order all the black people off the floor,” he said. “It was the eighties, I was a teen-ager, but I remember it: they put us all in the back.” http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/09/07/the-death-and-life-of-atlantic-city

    “Whether he’s mocking Chinese businesspeople with broken English, contorting his body to make fun of a disabled reporter, or calling out to “my African American,” again and again, Trump has provoked anxiety and played to racial divisions.” http://fortune.com/2016/06/07/donald-trump-racism-quotes/

    Yep, his businesses hired people, some of them undoubtedly minorities (do you have any actual information on Trump hiring practices as opposed to other businesses?). “He hired minorities so he can’t be bigoted” is pretty flat beer. He deliberately plays to bigoted stereotypes--and that is deplorable. In the end, I trust that most blacks and hispanics and women will see through him. Of course, there will be some who say that that's just because they're just not as smart as--who?--men of northern european descent?
  5. Subscriberno1marauder
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    17 Sep '16 05:131 edit
    Originally posted by whodey
    I think that human being all have an innate desire to be ruled over. That is how we are designed.

    Unfortunately, mankind is a terrible substitute.

    God made us free but it is man who seeks to enslave us.

    Because secular humanists don't believe in a God, they naturally look to people like Barak Obama instead. I think that is why all atheists I know put their trust and hope in big government..
    Certainly almost the exact opposite is true; human beings resist authority almost from birth. Most social training is designed to get us over our innate desire to be free.

    Of course, your premises are contradictory and nonsensical - humans can't both be designed to "have an innate desire to be ruled over" AND "God [have] made us free". IF God made us with an innate desire to be ruled over, he did not make us free.
  6. Hmmm . . .
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    17 Sep '16 05:351 edit
    I think that Michael Bloomberg (a real innovator and entrepreneur, whether one agrees with his politics or not) summed it up well at the Democratic Convention:

    “Most of us who have created a business know that we're only as good as the way our employees, clients, and partners view us. Most of us don't pretend that we're smart enough to make every big decision by ourselves. And most of us who have our names on the door know that we are only as good as our word, but not Donald Trump.”

    "Throughout his career, Trump has left behind a well-documented record of bankruptcies, thousands of lawsuits, angry shareholders and contractors who feel cheated, and disillusioned customers who feel ripped off. Trump says he wants to run the nation like he's run his business. God help us.”

    Some people praise Trump as a “job creator.” He’s not. But then, neither is Bloomberg. What creates jobs is a robust economy with a broad, healthy and “wealthy” consumer class. From a purely capitalist perspective, increasing income inequality sucks the necessary income from those who will spend it to stimulate (real) investment and “create jobs.” Businesses don’t generate increased goods and services—or jobs—because they have the funds to do so (supply does not create demand): they make real productive investment because of the expectations that they will be able to sell the product.

    [Edited out: Unnecessary microeconomic discussion of consumption and investment, interest rates, global markets, etc.]

    Although I don’t necessarily agree with everything he says, Nick Hanauer made the case pretty straightforwardly in an early piece (in 2011): “That’s why I can say with confidence that rich people don’t create jobs, nor do businesses, large or small. What does lead to more employment is the feedback loop between customers and businesses. And only consumers can set in motion a virtuous cycle that allows companies to survive and thrive and business owners to hire. An ordinary middle-class consumer is far more of a job creator than I ever have been or ever will be.”

    (https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2011-12-01/raise-taxes-on-the-rich-to-reward-job-creators-commentary-by-nick-hanauer)
  7. Germany
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    17 Sep '16 11:09
    Originally posted by whodey
    Nonsense. Trump is a Republican and wants to build a border wall so that makes him a racist.

    Nuff said.
    Wait a second, are you honestly, seriously saying Trump's not a racist?
  8. Standard membervivify
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    17 Sep '16 15:311 edit
    Originally posted by whodey
    I think that human being all have an innate desire to be ruled over. That is how we are designed.

    Unfortunately, mankind is a terrible substitute.

    God made us free but it is man who seeks to enslave us.

    Because secular humanists don't believe in a God, they naturally look to people like Barak Obama instead. I think that is why all atheists I know put their trust and hope in big government..
    "Unfortunately, mankind is a terrible substitute."

    Is a God who extermitated the entire human race with a flood and threatens eternal torment a better option?
  9. Joined
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    17 Sep '16 21:03
    Originally posted by stellspalfie
    its odd to me that some Americans make a fuss about their perceived levels of freedom and rail against government rules and regulations..........then get down on their knees and prey to a god who dictates how they should live their life with a giant list of rules and regulations....ohhh the irony!!!
    Funny how some believe a government telling people what is moral and immoral is superior to individual conscience. I can understand how Europeans would look to their governments to tell them what to believe. Rebellion against that practice is what created the need for the US. Too bad it seems the American Rebellion appears to be becoming a Revolution.
  10. Cape Town
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    17 Sep '16 22:07
    Originally posted by Eladar
    Funny how some believe a government telling people what is moral and immoral is superior to individual conscience.
    Funny how you will probably reverse that stance once you realise that you are actually arguing against your fellow republicans.
  11. Standard memberKellyJay
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    17 Sep '16 22:531 edit
    Originally posted by Eladar
    Funny how some believe a government telling people what is moral and immoral is superior to individual conscience. I can understand how Europeans would look to their governments to tell them what to believe. Rebellion against that practice is what created the need for the US. Too bad it seems the American Rebellion appears to be becoming a Revolution.
    What is moral and immoral, what is fair and not fair, lawful and unlawful, and who should
    be held accountable and who isn't going to be.

    I should add who are good people and who is not.
  12. Standard memberDeepThought
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    17 Sep '16 23:05
    Originally posted by Eladar
    Funny how some believe a government telling people what is moral and immoral is superior to individual conscience. I can understand how Europeans would look to their governments to tell them what to believe. Rebellion against that practice is what created the need for the US. Too bad it seems the American Rebellion appears to be becoming a Revolution.
    You are aware that there was a revolution in England which resulted in the King being beheaded a good century before either the French, who chopped off their King's head too. But you are aware that when the 13 colonies rebelled they failed even to behead even a governor, never mind the King. I'm sorry, but you see, we in Europe understand that in order to flourish we actually need these institutions, if you want poverty and powerlessness go ahead and abolish your government.
  13. Zugzwang
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    17 Sep '16 23:09
    Originally posted by DeepThought to Eladar
    You are aware that there was a revolution in England which resulted in the King being beheaded a good century before either the French, who chopped off their King's head too. But you are aware that when the 13 colonies rebelled they failed even to behead even a governor, never mind the King. I'm sorry, but you see, we in Europe understand tha ...[text shortened]... these institutions, if you want poverty and powerlessness go ahead and abolish your government.
    "...they failed to behead..."
    --DeepThought

    But Westerners today condemn ISIS's beheadings for being a barbarous method of execution.
  14. Standard memberKellyJay
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    17 Sep '16 23:14
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    You are aware that there was a revolution in England which resulted in the King being beheaded a good century before either the French, who chopped off their King's head too. But you are aware that when the 13 colonies rebelled they failed even to behead even a governor, never mind the King. I'm sorry, but you see, we in Europe understand that in order ...[text shortened]... these institutions, if you want poverty and powerlessness go ahead and abolish your government.
    The government works well enough when it rules by laws and not people, but when we
    put in place a ruling class the laws tend to break down and some are held to different
    standards than the rest. From that point on things change and get worse over time.
  15. Joined
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    17 Sep '16 23:23
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Funny how you will probably reverse that stance once you realise that you are actually arguing against your fellow republicans.
    I am officially a republican but I do not support most republicans. I am not defined by party offiliation.
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