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Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    31 Mar '10 00:48
    They blow themselves up for their beliefs. That deserves respect.

    Murdering civilians does not however.
  2. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    31 Mar '10 00:56
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    They blow themselves up for their beliefs. That deserves respect.

    Murdering civilians does not however.
    Of all the outraged and angry opprobrium that was justifiably heaped upon the people who flew aeroplanes into buildings in 2001, the most incongruous was the accusation of "cowardice".
  3. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    31 Mar '10 01:06
    Originally posted by FMF
    Of all the outraged and angry opprobrium that was justifiably heaped upon the people who flew aeroplanes into buildings in 2001, the most incongruous was the accusation of "cowardice".
    I absolutely agree. As I've said before, the Taliban and Al Qaeda are a lot of things, but cowards they are not.
  4. Donation rwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    31 Mar '10 01:08
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    They blow themselves up for their beliefs. That deserves respect.

    Murdering civilians does not however.
    If they just attacked military targets, say, like kamikaze pilots, would they get your respect as well?
  5. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    31 Mar '10 01:09
    Originally posted by rwingett
    If they just attacked military targets, say, like kamikaze pilots, would they get your respect as well?
    Yes, except that the Kamikazes didn't have a choice. Japan wouldn't take them back once they'd been ordered to Kamikaze.
  6. Donation rwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    31 Mar '10 01:12 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Yes, except that the Kamikazes didn't have a choice. Japan wouldn't take them back once they'd been ordered to Kamikaze.
    That's not true. In his book 'Zero Pilot' Japanese ace Saburo Sakai recounts how he was ordered to go on a kamikaze mission. Due to terrible weather they were unable to find their targets. He returned to base and apparently was never asked to do that again.

    Edit: The book was called Samurai!, by Saburo Sakai with Martin Caidan and Fred Saito.
  7. Donation rwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    31 Mar '10 01:17
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Yes, except that the Kamikazes didn't have a choice. Japan wouldn't take them back once they'd been ordered to Kamikaze.
    Here's the account of the incident from Wikipedia
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saburo_sakai#Recovery_and_Return

    Sakai was ordered to lead a kamikaze mission on July 5, 1944, but he failed to find the U.S. task force. He was engaged by Hellcat fighters near the task force's reported position, and all but one of the Nakajima B6N2 "Jill" torpedo bombers in his flight were shot down. Sakai managed to shoot down one Hellcat, then escaped the umbrella of enemy aircraft by flying into a cloud. Rather than follow meaningless orders, in worsening weather and gathering darkness, Sakai led his small formation back to Iwo Jima, preserving the aircraft and pilots for another day.
  8. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    31 Mar '10 01:35 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by rwingett
    That's not true. In his book 'Zero Pilot' Japanese ace Saburo Sakai recounts how he was ordered to go on a kamikaze mission. Due to terrible weather they were unable to find their targets. He returned to base and apparently was never asked to do that again.
    Oh, I wasn't aware of that. That person chose not to be a Kamikaze and got away with it I guess.

    According to "Kamikaze Diaries: Reflections of Japanese Student Soldiers" editted by Emiko Ohunki-Tierney, Kuroda Kenjiro refused but his superior officer wrote in that his unit had unanimously volunteered anyway, and "a graduate of Waseda University who kept returning without finding an enemy to attack was shot to death the ninth time he came back."
  9. Standard member adam warlock
    Baby Gauss
    31 Mar '10 02:10
    Yes. Blowing yourself up into a million pieces and dying instantly while taking the life of thousands of innocent people is a great show of courage.

  10. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    31 Mar '10 02:13
    Originally posted by adam warlock
    Yes. Blowing yourself up into a million pieces and dying instantly while taking the life of thousands of innocent people is a great show of courage.
    Perhaps you had some non-standard definition of "courage" in mind when you chose the emoticon to flag your mordacity.
  11. 31 Mar '10 02:17
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    They blow themselves up for their beliefs. That deserves respect.

    Murdering civilians does not however.
    So, if I ran over your family with my Cadillac simply because I "believed" they deserved a good running over am I deserving of respect?
  12. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    31 Mar '10 02:26 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by peanutpicker61
    So, if I ran over your family with my Cadillac simply because I "believed" they deserved a good running over am I deserving of respect?
    ATY specifically said his "Worthy of Respect" thing excluded people "blow[ing] themselves up for their beliefs" when it involved "Murdering civilians". Your Cadillac/dead family analogy is silly.
  13. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    31 Mar '10 02:26
    Originally posted by peanutpicker61
    So, if I ran over your family with my Cadillac simply because I "believed" they deserved a good running over am I deserving of respect?
    No, because murdering civilians is not worthy of respect.
  14. Standard member adam warlock
    Baby Gauss
    31 Mar '10 02:33
    Originally posted by FMF
    Perhaps you had some non-standard definition of "courage" in mind when you chose the emoticon to flag your mordacity.
    Courage: doing something you're afraid off.

    How non-standard is that?
  15. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    31 Mar '10 02:40 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by adam warlock
    Courage: doing something you're afraid off.

    How non-standard is that?
    It's non-standard. "Courage" is absence of fear. Its synonym is "fearlessness". So the people who flew those jets into those buildings had courage and oodles of it. Your disgust and outrage at what they did is not enhanced in any way by denying their courage.