Please turn on javascript in your browser to play chess.
Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. 21 Aug '13 20:12 / 1 edit
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/21/american-dream-rewards-few-enslaves-millions

    "The American dream rewards few, enslaves millions:
    My ideology tells me to tear it all down. Yet, like everyone else, I'm
    suckered into a system that offers a mirage of self-improvement."
    --Bhaskar Sunkara (21 August 2013)

    "To many liberals I know, I'm a vindication of the system. It's how
    American illusions about work function. The focus is on individual triumph
    and luck, not collective action and social responsibility. ... something like
    the hardship of sickness in a country without socialized healthcare is
    whitewashed into a formative tale about ovecoming obstacles. ...
    A few token children of the meritocracy keep the rest of us glued to
    our machines. Not all in chains, some by choice."
    --Bhaskar Sunkara

    How 'underprivileged' would a homeless person be with a lottery ticket in
    one's pocket?

    For most Americans, the surest way to enjoy more opportunities in 'the
    pursuit of happiness' is inherit wealth and privilege from their parents
    While some Americans born into wealth and privilege make poor use of
    their opportunities and squander what they have been given and some
    other Americans of exceptional determination, talent, or good fortune can
    rise well above their circumstances of birth, the cultural myth of the
    'American Dream' has too often been exploited to distract attention from
    the injustices of American capitalism.
  2. 21 Aug '13 20:47
    The American Dream is a very peculiar kind of myth. While it is tremendously easier for a talented Finn born in a relatively poor family to become successful in Finland than it is for an equivalent American, I have never heard any Finn boasting that Finland is "the land of opportunity" or anything of the sort.
  3. 21 Aug '13 21:10
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    The American Dream is a very peculiar kind of myth. While it is tremendously easier for a talented Finn born in a relatively poor family to become successful in Finland than it is for an equivalent American, I have never heard any Finn boasting that Finland is "the land of opportunity" or anything of the sort.
    I also often have heard Americans claiming that the United States must
    be unique for being a country of immigrants (traditionally from Europe,
    recently from more diverse places). I wonder if those Americans ever
    have heard of countries like Canada or Australia. Immigrant 'success
    stories' don't belong only to the United States.
  4. Standard member bill718
    Enigma
    21 Aug '13 22:34 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/21/american-dream-rewards-few-enslaves-millions

    "The American dream rewards few, enslaves millions:
    My ideology tells me to tear it all down. Yet, like everyone else, I'm
    suckered into a system that offers a mirage of self-improvement."
    --Bhaskar Sunkara (21 August 2013)

    "To many liberals I know, been exploited to distract attention from
    the injustices of American capitalism.
    There are some opportunities to improve one's situation in America, but I'll agree that the "America...land of opportunity" slogan is just that. The 1% have stacked the deck in their favor.
  5. 21 Aug '13 23:01
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    The American Dream is a very peculiar kind of myth. While it is tremendously easier for a talented Finn born in a relatively poor family to become successful in Finland than it is for an equivalent American, I have never heard any Finn boasting that Finland is "the land of opportunity" or anything of the sort.
    The American Dream is not exclusive, never has been. It can work anywhere there is liberty enough.

    I don't know if there is any way to test the assertion that a talented Finn of poor origins has an easier time than an equivalent American. I'm not sure how that relates to the "American Dream", as easy ascendency to mediocrity isn't the American Dream. The American Dream is about unlimited potential as well.

    What sort of opportunity does an African immigrant have in Finland?
  6. 21 Aug '13 23:04
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    I also often have heard Americans claiming that the United States must
    be unique for being a country of immigrants (traditionally from Europe,
    recently from more diverse places). I wonder if those Americans ever
    have heard of countries like Canada or Australia. Immigrant 'success
    stories' don't belong only to the United States.
    To some extent both Canada and Australia are imitators of the US. All share the same "mother culture".
  7. 21 Aug '13 23:22
    Originally posted by normbenign to KazetNagorra
    The American Dream is not exclusive, never has been.
    It can work anywhere there is liberty enough.

    I don't know if there is any way to test the assertion that a talented Finn of poor origins has an easier time than an equivalent American. I'm not sure how that relates to the "American Dream", as easy ascendency to mediocrity isn't t ...[text shortened]... d potential as well.

    What sort of opportunity does an African immigrant have in Finland?
    "What sort of opportunity does an African immigrant have in Finland?"
    --Normbenign

    Finland has a Somali minority of about 15000 persons.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somali_community_in_Finland

    Sara Yasmina Chafak's a professional model, who was born in Helsinki to
    a Moroccan father and a Finnish mother. She won the 2012 Miss Suomi
    (Miss Finland) beauty contest and represented Finland at Miss Universe.
    (When you're hot, you're hot, eh?)
  8. 21 Aug '13 23:29 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by normbenign
    To some extent both Canada and Australia are imitators of the US.
    All share the same "mother culture".
    Canadians and Australians are not Americans. Most Canadians and
    Australians would not feel complimented when ethnocentric Americans
    tell them they are 'imitators' of Americans. Indeed, Canada and Australia
    have their own distinct histories, in which most of their peoples take pride.
    But could an extremely ethnocentric American begin to comprehend that?

    Indeed, not only are most Canadians proud not to be (US) Americans;
    many Canadians are proud that Canada has defeated US invasions.
    Whatever else the War of 1812 might have shown, it established that most
    Canadians did not want to become Americans, ruled by the US government.
    Laura Secord (nee Ingersoll) became a Canadian national heroine (widely
    celebrated and sometimes mythologized) for walking out of US-occupied
    Canada in order to warn the British and Canadian forces about an impending
    American attack.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laura_Secord

    "All share the same 'mother culture'."
    --Normbenign

    A Quebecois might ask Normbenign to repeat that in French, s'il vous plait.
    Among the cultural differences that I have noticed, many Canadians seem
    proud that Canada's supposed to have a deeper sense of social justice
    (as well as being less racist) than the United States. Likewise, many
    Australians seem proud that Australia's more egalitarian ('matey' than
    the United States. Wealthy Australians don't tend to receive the same
    kind of fawning deference that's usually expected by wealthy Americans.
  9. 21 Aug '13 23:32
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    "What sort of opportunity does an African immigrant have in Finland?"
    --Normbenign

    Finland has a Somali minority of about 15000 persons.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somali_community_in_Finland

    Sara Yasmina Chafak's a professional model, who was born in Helsinki to
    a Moroccan father and a Finnish mother. She won the 2012 Miss Suomi
    (Miss Finla ...[text shortened]... eauty contest and represented Finland at Miss Universe.
    (When you're hot, you're hot, eh?)
    Sweden is sure happy they've opened their country to Somalians;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IDBxPLp3i0

    For that matter, the US has been importing Somalians in vast numbers and wow are we happy. Minnesota is now 20% black because of the government policy of bringing them into the country and placing them in a previously 100% white state, and everyone is celebrating the wonders of diversity there. Like a dream come true.
    Fools.
  10. 21 Aug '13 23:53 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by KilgoreTrout15
    Sweden is sure happy they've opened their country to Somalians;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IDBxPLp3i0

    For that matter, the US has been importing Somalians in vast numbers and wow are we happy. Minnesota is now 20% black because of the government policy of bringing them into the country and placing them in a previously 100% white state, and everyone is celebrating the wonders of diversity there. Like a dream come true.
    Fools.
    KilgoreTrout15 likes to make up racial/ethnic statistics as he goes along.

    "...the US has been importing Somalians in vast numbers..."
    --KilgoreTrout15

    In 2010 there were an estimated 85,700 people of Somali heritage in
    the United States, which has a population of more than 300 million people.
    'Vast numbers' of Somalians, eh?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somali_American

    "Minnesota is now 20% black..."
    --KilgoreTrout15

    According to the US Census Bureau, in 2012 Minnesota's population was
    about 5.5% black or African-American alone (not counting 'mixed race'.

    "...placing them in a previously 100% white state"
    --KilgoreTrout

    When did all native Americans ('Indians' in Minnesota get reclassified
    as 'white'?
  11. Subscriber Kewpie
    since 1-Feb-07
    22 Aug '13 00:50 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by KilgoreTrout15
    Sweden is sure happy they've opened their country to Somalians;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IDBxPLp3i0

    For that matter, the US has been importing Somalians in vast numbers and wow are we happy. Minnesota is now 20% black because of the government policy of bringing them into the country and placing them in a previously 100% white state, and everyone is celebrating the wonders of diversity there. Like a dream come true.
    Fools.
    To counter that one-sided, butchered clip offered by KilgoreTrout15:

    http://www.somaliweyn.org/pages/news/Feb_11/5Feb13.html

    Somali refugees have been accepted in Australia in reasonable numbers, just as in Sweden. There are now Somali-born hoodlums, Somali-born workers, and Somali-born doctors. Just like all the other migrant communities, including the English who have been here longer than any other immigrant group.
  12. 22 Aug '13 01:22 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by normbenign
    To some extent both Canada and Australia are imitators of the US.
    All share the same "mother culture".
    I suspect that few Canadians or Australians would like their countries to
    imitate US gun laws and have the same gun death statistics as the USA's.
  13. 22 Aug '13 02:11
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    "What sort of opportunity does an African immigrant have in Finland?"
    --Normbenign

    Finland has a Somali minority of about 15000 persons.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somali_community_in_Finland

    Sara Yasmina Chafak's a professional model, who was born in Helsinki to
    a Moroccan father and a Finnish mother. She won the 2012 Miss Suomi
    (Miss Finla ...[text shortened]... eauty contest and represented Finland at Miss Universe.
    (When you're hot, you're hot, eh?)
    You bet. I wonder how long Somalis will be welcome if they fail to assimilate into Finland's culture?
  14. 22 Aug '13 02:17
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Canadians and Australians are not Americans. Most Canadians and
    Australians would not feel complimented when ethnocentric Americans
    tell them they are 'imitators' of Americans. Indeed, Canada and Australia
    have their own distinct histories, in which most of their peoples take pride.
    But could an extremely ethnocentric American begin to comprehend th ...[text shortened]... e the same
    kind of fawning deference that's usually expected by wealthy Americans.
    Canada and Australia are obviously different from the US. Each nation has its reasons for pride, but all three were primarily colonized by Englishmen.

    Quebec has been on the verge of civil war as long as I can remember, and I've actually toured the rurals around Montreal and spoken to the natives in French. Much of southern Louisiana is also sort of French speaking.
  15. 22 Aug '13 02:19
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    I suspect that few Canadians or Australians would like their countries to
    imitate US gun laws and have the same gun death statistics as the USA's.
    Until recently both had quite similar protection of gun ownership to the US. Canadians have resisted collection of their firearms by simply being scofflaws. The Aussies haven't unanimously celebrated the confiscation of their weapons either.