Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
    Moves
    2120
    05 Jun '18 23:261 edit
    The racist troll AThousandYoung has a long record of blatant falsehoods denying
    Chinese achievements in maritime technology (as well as achievements in general).
    (AThousandYoung also claimed that Asian Americans' superior academic
    achievements should be explained by their alleged more successful cheating.)

    Here are some statements from _The Genius of China_ by Robert Temple,
    which is a popular condensation of the standard academic reference
    _Science and Civilisation in China_, chiefly edited by Joseph Needham.
    I refer to the first edition (1986), not to a later expanded edition.

    "It probably could be safely said that the Chinese were the greatest sailors in history.
    For nearly two millennia they had ships and sailing techniques so far in
    advance of the rest of the world that comparisons are embarrassing.
    When the West finally did catch up with them, it was only by adapting their
    inventions in one way or another. For most of history, Europeans used
    ships which were drastically inferior to Chinese ships in every respect imaginable.
    They [European ships] had no rudders, no leeboards, no watertight compartments
    [all Chinese inventions], single masts, and square sails that left them at
    the mercy of winds to an extent which today we would consider ludicrous." (p. 186)

    "Chinese sails [made of bamboo] were innately superior to Western ones...
    A [Chinese] ship can sail adequately even if half of the sail consists of holes
    which have been torn into it...A Western canvas sail could never function
    with so many holes. Also, the battens held Chinese sails taut, which was
    more efficient aerodynamically." (pp. 186-7)

    Robert Temple describes in detail how the Chinese mastered the art of
    sailing *into the wind* many centuries before Europeans could do so.

    "After an interval of at least thirteen hundred years, Europeans thus adopted
    Chinese concepts of rigging. In every way, whether for navigation, propulsion,
    or steering, Europeans were dependent upon Chinese ideas in order to
    be capable of the Great Voyages of Discovery...the direct result of the
    adoption by Europeans of Chinese technology on the high seas." (pp. 189-90)
  2. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
    Moves
    2120
    05 Jun '18 23:321 edit
    Here are more statements from _The Genius of China_ by Robert Temple:

    "From at least the second century AD, if a traditional Chinese ship received a hole of
    any kind in its hull, the ship would not sink. This is because the Chinese constructed
    hulls on the bulkhead principle [using watertight compartments]." (p. 190)

    Robert Temple quotes Benjamin Franklin writing (in 1787) about the Chinese invention
    of watertight compartments in ships, which the Europeans had begun to copy.

    "The idea of watertight compartments for ships' hulls was brought to Europe from China
    by Sir Samuel Bentham (1757-1831), who was a long time the chief engineer and architect of the
    British Navy. As a young man in 1782, he traveled...to China and studied Chinese ship construction." (p. 190)

    "It is no exaggeration to say that the superiority of the British Navy was to a large extent
    due to its readiness to adopt Chinese inventions more rapidly than other European powers." (p. 186)
  3. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
    Moves
    2120
    05 Jun '18 23:37
    Here are more statements from _The Genius of China_ by Robert Temple

    "Until Europeans adopted the rudder from the Chinese, Western ships had to make do with steering oars.
    This meant that long voyages of discovery by Europeans were impossible. The famous
    voyages of Christopher Columbus, Vasco de Gama, and others of their time were made
    possible by the adoption of Chinese nautical technology." (p. 185)

    "Another traditional Chinese invention was the 'fenestrated rudder' ... The Chinese soon
    discovered that while easing the task of turning the rudder through water, the holes did
    not appreciably diminish its steering function. However, it was not until 1901 that
    fenestrated rudders were introduced in the West." (p. 186)
  4. SubscriberAThousandYoung
    iEn guardia, Ingles!
    tinyurl.com/y43jqfyd
    Joined
    23 Aug '04
    Moves
    24791
    06 Jun '18 00:11
    Lol
  5. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
    Moves
    2120
    06 Jun '18 00:12
    Originally posted by @athousandyoung
    Lol
    AThousandYoung keeps showing that he's a sneering lying racist troll.
  6. Standard memberwolfgang59
    Mr. Wolf
    at home
    Joined
    09 Jun '07
    Moves
    45641
    06 Jun '18 00:34
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    AThousandYoung keeps showing that he's a sneering lying racist troll.
    You read a lot into that "LOL"!

    Besides, when you start a new thread with
    The racist troll AThousandYoung
    aren't you trolling him?

    btw: Interesting use of "fenestrated" in your post. I have not seen that use before.
  7. SubscriberAThousandYoung
    iEn guardia, Ingles!
    tinyurl.com/y43jqfyd
    Joined
    23 Aug '04
    Moves
    24791
    06 Jun '18 00:38
    Junk rigs are slow. Their flat sails are poor at catching strong trade winds. Viking ships were much faster.
  8. SubscriberAThousandYoung
    iEn guardia, Ingles!
    tinyurl.com/y43jqfyd
    Joined
    23 Aug '04
    Moves
    24791
    06 Jun '18 00:471 edit
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_rig

    Square rig is a generic type of sail and rigging arrangement in which the primary driving sails are carried on horizontal spars which are perpendicular, or square, to the keel of the vessel and to the masts. These spars are called yards and their tips, beyond the last stay, are called the yardarms.[1] A ship mainly so rigged is called a square-rigger.[2]

    The square rig is aerodynamically the most efficient running rig (i.e., sailing downwind), and stayed popular on ocean-going sailing ships until the end of the Age of Sail. The last commercial sailing ships, windjammers, were usually square-rigged four-masted barques.
  9. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
    Moves
    2120
    06 Jun '18 01:461 edit
    Originally posted by @wolfgang59
    You read a lot into that "LOL"!

    Besides, when you start a new thread with
    The racist troll AThousandYoung
    aren't you trolling him?

    btw: Interesting use of "fenestrated" in your post. I have not seen that use before.
    First of all, Wolfgang59's been trolling me since I pointed out his historical ignorance
    and dishonesty in the thread 'UK Arrests Journalists':
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The troll Wolfgang59 shows that he's far too arrogant and dishonest to concede his errors.
    ""throughout Europe" does not mean "everywhere in Europe"
    --Wolfgang59

    Very disingenuous. What Wolfgang59 wrote immediately afterward makes his context clear.
    "Serfdom existed throughout Europe in the late Middle Ages, SO unless you
    have no European ancestry you are UNDOUBTEDLY the descendant of serfs.
    --Wolfgang59

    Note that Wolfgang59 NEVER MENTIONED ANY EXCEPTIONS for the people whose
    ancestors came from the parts of Europe where there never was any serfdom.

    "you are UNDOUBTEDLY the descendant of serfs..."
    --Wolfgang59 (earlier)
    "It is *statistically improbable*..."
    --Wolfgang59 (now)

    Note how the lying troll Wolfgang59 pretends that what he claims now (a major change)
    is what he wrote earlier.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    AThouandYoung's undoubtedly a racist troll, even if his virulent anti-Asian racism may be popular here.

    In fact, AThousandYoung and I had an ongoing dispute about Chinese maritime achievements
    in the thread "I'm Sorry", and that had digressed too far from the thread's subject.
    That's why I created this thread.
  10. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
    Moves
    2120
    06 Jun '18 01:58
    Originally posted by @athousandyoung
    Junk rigs are slow. Their flat sails are poor at catching strong trade winds. Viking ships were much faster.
    More nonsense from the racist troll AThousandYoung.

    "It is by no means certain that a *modern* yacht could outperform [sail faster] a comparable
    [traditional] Chinese junk built for racing and using lug sails with battens in the classic manner.
    A race between two such vessels would be interesting indeed. The junk is the direct
    ancestor of the yacht, but may still be inherently better." (p. 187)

    "They [Chinese] positioned the masts not directly in a row along the center of the ship
    lengthwise, but staggered thwartwise from one side to the other. This brilliant idea was
    never adopted in the West, and even the fastest Yankee Clipper ... had the pedantic
    feature of the masts marching along straight above the keel, so the rear sails becalmed
    the fore sails." (p. 188)

    So the Europeans sometimes were not even clever enough to copy Chinese inventions.
  11. SubscriberAThousandYoung
    iEn guardia, Ingles!
    tinyurl.com/y43jqfyd
    Joined
    23 Aug '04
    Moves
    24791
    06 Jun '18 03:37
    Yachts don’t use a square rig. Try racing a clipper or windjammer across the Pacific.
  12. Standard memberDeepThought
    Losing the Thread
    Cosmopolis
    Joined
    27 Oct '04
    Moves
    80056
    06 Jun '18 10:59
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    More nonsense from the racist troll AThousandYoung.

    "It is by no means certain that a *modern* yacht could outperform [sail faster] a comparable
    [traditional] Chinese junk built for racing and using lug sails with battens in the classic manner.
    A race between two such vessels would be interesting indeed. The junk is the direct
    ancestor of the yacht ...[text shortened]... " (p. 188)

    So the Europeans sometimes were not even clever enough to copy Chinese inventions.
    I find it a little disturbing that you started a thread solely for the purpose of berating ATY. However, since it's here...

    I agree that the Chinese had various naval technologies not discovered in the West. I'd tend to regard the most important as being internal bulkheads to control flooding.

    Most designs are matter of compromise. Offsetting the masts from the centre line of the ship in the way you've described (assuming that I've understood your description correctly) means the hull has to be designed so the masts can fit in that way. I'd speculate that the ship would have to either be flat bottomed or have the base of the masts not go down as low as possible, with structural consequences. In a military vessel this would also reduce the number of points where cannons could be emplaced. You may be right that they never considered it, but a significant hull redesign involves taking additional financial risks in developing the ship and operating the first few versions that they may have felt it wasn't worth the extra few knots trying to integrate that particular technology.
  13. Behind the scenes
    Joined
    27 Jun '16
    Moves
    1406
    06 Jun '18 12:37
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    The racist troll AThousandYoung has a long record of blatant falsehoods denying
    Chinese achievements in maritime technology (as well as achievements in general).
    (AThousandYoung also claimed that Asian Americans' superior academic
    achievements should be explained by their alleged more successful cheating.)

    Here are some statements from _The Genius o ...[text shortened]... irect result of the
    adoption by Europeans of Chinese technology on the high seas." (pp. 189-90)
    Thank You for the lesson on Chinese maritime superiority. Why are you telling us this?
  14. Standard memberDeepThought
    Losing the Thread
    Cosmopolis
    Joined
    27 Oct '04
    Moves
    80056
    06 Jun '18 14:20
    Originally posted by @wolfgang59
    You read a lot into that "LOL"!

    Besides, when you start a new thread with
    The racist troll AThousandYoung
    aren't you trolling him?

    btw: Interesting use of "fenestrated" in your post. I have not seen that use before.
    I think that usage is standard, although I can't be bothered to check. It's a direct quote from the Robert Temple book.

    The thin parts on the human skull on each side of your temple are known as temporal fenestra, so your skull is fenestrated.

    I wasn't certain about the anatomical use and ended up checking on Wikipedia, I'm still not as the article seems more interested in talking about dinosaur skulls, but the entry below refers to the usage regarding ships rudders.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenestration
  15. Joined
    02 Jan '06
    Moves
    10087
    06 Jun '18 14:26
    Originally posted by @mchill
    Thank You for the lesson on Chinese maritime superiority. Why are you telling us this?
    Because you need to start learning Chinese.
Back to Top