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Debates Forum

  1. 14 Feb '10 01:14
    So it seems Hu Jintao and his band of merry capitalists are reversing Mao's reforms all over China. They shut down some more health care centers in the countryside. It seems that unless there is genuine reform, the "People's Republic of China" will be doomed to be an oligarchy forever.

    :'(

    A toast to the Chairman for what he tried to do. He went a bit kooky towards the end, but his intentions were good.
  2. 14 Feb '10 01:27
    when was communist china not an oligarchy?
  3. 14 Feb '10 01:28 / 1 edit
    Mao screwed up big time. see the Great Famine, for one. and his primary intentions were to keep himself at the top.
  4. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    14 Feb '10 01:30
    Originally posted by scherzo
    So it seems Hu Jintao and his band of merry capitalists are reversing Mao's reforms all over China. They shut down some more health care centers in the countryside. It seems that unless there is genuine reform, the "People's Republic of China" will be doomed to be an oligarchy forever.

    :'(

    A toast to the Chairman for what he tried to do. He went a bit kooky towards the end, but his intentions were good.
    A toast to Chairman Mao.













    Okay; now I've heard it all.
  5. 14 Feb '10 01:32
    Originally posted by zeeblebot
    when was communist china not an oligarchy?
    Between 1949 and, oh, 1973 or so.
  6. 14 Feb '10 01:42
    Originally posted by scherzo
    Between 1949 and, oh, 1973 or so.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao_Zedong

    ...

    From 1931 to 1934, Mao helped establish the Soviet Republic of China and was elected Chairman of this small republic in the mountainous areas in Jiangxi. Here, Mao was married to He Zizhen. His previous wife, Yang Kaihui, had been arrested and executed in 1930, just three years after their departure.

    It was alleged[citation needed] that Mao orchestrated the Anti-Bolshevik League incident and the Futian incident.

    In Jiangxi, Mao's authoritative domination, especially that of the military force, was challenged by the Jiangxi branch of the CPC and military officers. Mao's opponents, among whom the most prominent was Li Wenlin, the founder of the CPC's branch and Red Army in Jiangxi, were against Mao's land policies and proposals to reform the local party branch and army leadership. Mao reacted first by accusing the opponents of opportunism and kulakism and then set off a series of systematic suppressions of them.[14]

    Under the direction of Mao, it is reported that horrible methods of torture took place[15] and given names such as sitting in a sedan chair, airplane ride, toad-drinking water, and monkey pulling reins."[15] The wives of several suspects had their breasts cut open and their genitals burned.[15] It has been estimated that 'tens of thousands' of suspected enemies,[16] perhaps as many as 186,000,[17] were killed during this purge. Critics accuse Mao's authority in Jiangxi of being secured and reassured through the revolutionary terrorism, or red terrorism.[18]

    Mao, with the help of Zhu De, built a modest but effective army, undertook experiments in rural reform and government, and provided refuge for Communists fleeing the rightist purges in the cities. Mao's methods are normally referred to as Guerrilla warfare; but he himself made a distinction between guerrilla warfare (youji zhan) and Mobile Warfare (yundong zhan).

    Mao's Guerrilla Warfare and Mobile Warfare was based upon the fact of the poor armament and military training of the Red Army which consisted mainly of impoverished peasants, who, however, were all encouraged by revolutionary passions and aspiring after a communist utopia.

    ....

    Under increasing pressure from the KMT encirclement campaigns, there was a struggle for power within the Communist leadership. Mao was removed from his important positions and replaced by individuals (including Zhou Enlai) who appeared loyal to the orthodox line advocated by Moscow and represented within the CPC by a group known as the 28 Bolsheviks.

    ...

    According to the standard Chinese Communist Party line, from his base in Yan'an, Mao led the Communist resistance against the Japanese in the Second Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945).[citation needed] However, Mao further consolidated power over the Communist Party in 1942 by launching the Shu Fan movement, or "Rectification" campaign against rival CPC members such as Wang Ming, Wang Shiwei, and Ding Ling.

    ...

    In 1948, the People’s Liberation Army starved out the Kuomintang forces occupying the city of Changchun. At least 160,000 civilians are believed to have perished during the siege, which lasted from June until October. PLA lieutenant colonel Zhang Zhenglu, who documented the siege in his book White Snow, Red Blood, compared it to Hiroshima: “The casualties were about the same. Hiroshima took nine seconds; Changchun took five months.”[23]

    ...
  7. 14 Feb '10 01:43
    that the oligarchs fought among each other does not mean they were not oligarchs.
  8. 14 Feb '10 01:43
    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/oligarch

    oligarch (plural oligarchs)

    1. A member of an oligarchy, someone who is part of a small group that runs a country.
    2. A very rich person (especially in Russia).
  9. 14 Feb '10 02:18
    Originally posted by zeeblebot
    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/oligarch

    oligarch (plural oligarchs)

    1. A member of an oligarchy, someone who is part of a small group that runs a country.
    2. A very rich person (especially in Russia).
    And Mao fit this definition how?
  10. 14 Feb '10 05:51 / 1 edit
    not having control of the entire country in early days does not mean he was not in control, or at points a member of the group in control, of his own piece of the country.

    as China was split up into domains controlled by various warlords and armies back then, the domains were variously either oligarchies or (possibly for some) dictatorships.

    ---

    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/oligarchy

    oligarchy (plural oligarchies)

    1. A government run by only a few, often the wealthy.
    2. Those who make up an oligarchic government.
    3. A state ruled by such a government.
  11. 14 Feb '10 12:56 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by sh76
    A toast to Chairman Mao.













    Okay; now I've heard it all.
    He's a kid , doesn't know what he's saying. Just ignore him.
  12. 14 Feb '10 17:28
    Originally posted by Sam The Sham
    He's a kid , doesn't know what he's saying. Just ignore him.
    I'm probably older and definitely more intelligent than you are.
  13. 14 Feb '10 17:29
    Originally posted by zeeblebot
    not having control of the entire country in early days does not mean he was not in control, or at points a member of the group in control, of his own piece of the country.

    as China was split up into domains controlled by various warlords and armies back then, the domains were variously either oligarchies or (possibly for some) dictatorships.

    ---

    h ...[text shortened]... y.
    2. Those who make up an oligarchic government.
    3. A state ruled by such a government.
    So Mao and the CPC were "only a few, often the wealthy"?
  14. 14 Feb '10 17:34 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by scherzo
    So it seems Hu Jintao and his band of merry capitalists are reversing Mao's reforms all over China. They shut down some more health care centers in the countryside. It seems that unless there is genuine reform, the "People's Republic of China" will be doomed to be an oligarchy forever.

    :'(

    A toast to the Chairman for what he tried to do. He went a bit kooky towards the end, but his intentions were good.
    I think Pot Pol was a great admirer of Mao? A look how well he did with Cambodia.
    The period of the Mao reign, was one of the worse in Chinas' history. Drug addiction ran rampant, to the point where the Chinese just started shooting addicts.
    I would still prefer what we have here in the good old US. As it beats the heck out of most of what I see in the rest of the world.
    My neighbor is Chinese, I'll send her your way Scherzo. A much better picture, than what you read in books.
  15. Standard member DrKF
    incipit parodia
    14 Feb '10 17:54 / 1 edit
    Anything like Maoism has been in decline in China for a good couple of decades now. I think the interesting thing is that it was not the authoritarianism of Maoism that meant it was doomed to failure, but the fact that it was a specifically western import (in the form of heterodox Marxism) unsuited in every way to Chinese history and culture (both of which, of course, Maoism tried very hard to do away with, recognising this). But ever since the start of the decline of Maoism - and the entry of China in to the world economy - the Chinese have, wisely some may well say, ignored all the advice of the latest western fad (unregulated free market capitalism) and are forging quite a different path. It is easy to foist manifestly unsuitable economic theories on to poor countries; much harder to do so to an emerging economic power which continues to grow even as it ignores western advice.

    It may be - with the implosion of any nascent free market capitalist democracy in Russia towards a more authoritarian capitalism/oligarchy, and the virtually unfettered growth of China's economy as another, distinct model of authoritarian capitalism - that the model for world finance in a few generations will in no way resemble the model put about by certain neo-con hawks and boosters.

    After all, Japan was arguably the first non-Western country to modernise, and it remains resolutely non-western to this day in many ways. We can expect the same of China - only, since it seems that China may well experience an extremely sustained period of growth and concomitant power by following the path it has thus far, it may well be China that more influences the global system as it engages with it more fully than vice-versa.