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Debates Forum

  1. Account suspended
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    29 Jan '17 22:591 edit
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    The lying troll Robbie Carrobie again dishonestly distorts what I wrote.
    Ha! like a ride on time!😵
  2. Joined
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    29 Jan '17 23:20
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    from a fascinating article looking at why multiculturalism has failed.

    Only in the late 1980s did the question of cultural differences become important. A generation that, ironically, is far more integrated and westernized than the first turned out to be the more insistent on maintaining its alleged distinctiveness. The reasons for this shift are ...[text shortened]... iculturalism.

    https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/western-europe/failure-multiculturalism
    Multiculturalism is embraced with the premise that people will get along despite their differences and that their differences can be turned into a strength.

    That is a mighty big premise.
  3. Zugzwang
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    29 Jan '17 23:271 edit
    Originally posted by Eladar
    I think 1000's point is that like the Nazis, Muslims are only going to be forced out by force
    and should be done sooner than later to prevent them from gaining a strong foothold in Europe.
    The genocidal racist troll Eladar apparently believes that Hitler's mistake was not
    substituting Muslims for Jews in Nazi concentration camps.
  4. Standard memberfinnegan
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    29 Jan '17 23:351 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    from a fascinating article looking at why multiculturalism hai
    Only in the late 1980s did the question of cultural differences become important. A generation that, ironically, is far more integrated and westernized than the first turned out to be the more insistent on maintaining its alleged distinctiveness. The reasons for this shift are complex. P ...[text shortened]... iculturalism.

    https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/western-europe/failure-multiculturalism
    Your wilful opening claim that multiculturalism has failed is nonsense, at least in the UK. I know some people are working to make it so. You betray your connections with the Southern USA I fear.

    From the material I have been able to read without registering, this article has a major problem justifying its claims about cause and effect. It is typical of poor quality social commentary. It starts out assuming its own conclusions.

    "Multiculturalism has become a proxy for other social and political issues: immigration, identity, political disenchantment, working-class decline. Different countries, moreover, have followed distinct paths." This sentence opens up an immediate concern, that we need to have some good criteria by which to decide what it is we are discussing - since multiculturalism as a concept is acknowedged to be a portmanteau word with many different meanings, depending on your audience and the context.

    "The specific outcomes have also varied: in the United Kingdom, there has been communal violence; " Has there really been communal violence in the UK? I do not disagree that there have been incidents and local issues, some quite extreme, but I do challenge the claim that the UK is characterised by communal violence in any significant and systematic way. This is just not true - it is so untrue it is a lie. Possibly the most extensive manifestation of "communal violence" would have to be the IRA campaign arising from the Troubles in Ulster and they failed to establish any lasting or deep cultural divide between ordinary Irish people and others within the UK.

    "But everywhere, the overarching consequences have been the same: fragmented societies, alienated minorities, and resentful citizenries." Again, this is a gigantic claim and whatever else may be said of it, what is most egregious is the tricky little phrase: "the overarching consequences" You see? Consequences of what? Firstly, I want to know how to justify the cause and effect link with "multiculturalism." Secondly, I want a definition of multiculturalism, a slippery term as already observed. Thirdly, look at a book like The Spirit Level and tell my why the same social dislocation is not explained far more credibly with reference to social and economic inequality and the impact of neoliberalism.

    Now there are interesting debates to be had. To take one example, it seems we are noticing distinctive cultural groups forming in our societies. What does this signify? Well, it might signify the SUCCESS of multiculturalism. It is possible for British citizens, for example, to identify with specific cultural groups on the basis of ties such as their ancestry, their religion, their extended family associations, and so forth. So we have Jewish communities, some with ties going back to the Nineteenth Century, or Polish communities, some with ties back to the second World War when they fought with the British, or Irish, some with ties going back as long as you like, or West Indians with their Notting Hill Carnival. Is that a problem? Not at all, in my opinion. Indeed, why is it even desirable for migrants to lose their cutlural heritage and ties with other nations? To my mind, that would be unhealthy and a great loss.

    Even if you demonstrate that there are specific groups whose alienation, for whatever reason, leads to social conflicts or stress in whatever form, that does not prove the failure of multiculturalism. It simply proves that some people are outside of the net, as it were. The Scots, for example, are close to insurrection and a renewed call for independence, breaking up the UK. Yet despite nationalistic chants at the football terraces (where these have not been handed over for corporate hospitality instead of working class fans) I never feel unsafe crossing the Scottish border to visit a place like Troon, say. I get served and treated very well. When the Scots or the Irish claim to hate the English, they refer to an impersonal identity, or the establishment, or history, not to people one might meet on any street.

    Now there are indeed racists who will never be content with a multicultural society in any form, because that is the nature of their personality disorder. They will continue to appeal to their white supremacist fantasies as a rallying call to authoritarian and violently divisive social policies, To see how that works out, by comparison with multiculturalism, let's watch the USA under Trump. The trolls have their leader, like the children of Hamlin had their pied piper.
  5. Zugzwang
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    29 Jan '17 23:391 edit
    Given his belief in 'the failure of multiculturalism', would Robbie Carrobie like to return his wife to the Punjab?
  6. Standard membershavixmir
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    30 Jan '17 03:07
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    from a fascinating article looking at why multiculturalism has failed.

    Only in the late 1980s did the question of cultural differences become important. A generation that, ironically, is far more integrated and westernized than the first turned out to be the more insistent on maintaining its alleged distinctiveness. The reasons for this shift are ...[text shortened]... iculturalism.

    https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/western-europe/failure-multiculturalism
    Multiculturalism hasn't failed though.

    In many instances it's an enormous succes.
    One of the problems is that the right-wing parties here in europe have succeeded in claiming it fails because not everyone is integrated and speaks Dutch (or whatever lingo is spoken in a country).

    That actually was never a goal of multiculturalism. Respect, being able to communicate (nothing wrong with smiling, pointing and English) and safety to be who you are... that's what it's really about.

    And in most European cities the majority of people are safe to be who they want to be.

    Obviously you have fringe elements (basically religious nutjobs and neo-nazis) who disrupt the system... but you find them in any system, any setting and they're always disruptive.
  7. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    30 Jan '17 06:29
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    from a fascinating article looking at why multiculturalism has failed.

    Only in the late 1980s did the question of cultural differences become important. A generation that, ironically, is far more integrated and westernized than the first turned out to be the more insistent on maintaining its alleged distinctiveness. The reasons for this shift are ...[text shortened]... iculturalism.

    https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/western-europe/failure-multiculturalism
    Aren't you living in a country which has a national Church? Maybe you should go to Jehovah'sWitnessland instead, you cultural outsider.
  8. Account suspended
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    30 Jan '17 09:001 edit
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Given his belief in 'the failure of multiculturalism', would Robbie Carrobie like to return his wife to the Punjab?
    Which wife? I have several 😵
  9. Account suspended
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    30 Jan '17 09:354 edits
    Originally posted by finnegan
    Your wilful opening claim that multiculturalism has failed is nonsense, at least in the UK. I know some people are working to make it so. You betray your connections with the Southern USA I fear.

    From the material I have been able to read without registering, this article has a major problem justifying its claims about cause and effect. It is typical o ...[text shortened]... SA under Trump. The trolls have their leader, like the children of Hamlin had their pied piper.
    Your first objection is a feeble semantic argument which seeks as its basis some kind of dissonant meaning of multiculturalism and attempting to make an argument based on the differences. Weak, very weak. Furthermore the article was generously peppered with examples which demonstrated admirably that rather than actually foment a multicultural society what we have is little more than multi tribalism and the plans and ideas that were utilised in an attempt to produce a homogeneous society infact did the opposite and exacerbated the problem. Furthermore as the article points out in doing so there is a failure to recognise that there are differences even within communities, not every West Indian is a 'yardy' after all.

    Your insistence that my citing the article has anything to do with my having read Huckleberry Finn and having some kind of romantic notion with the South is nonsense! So I like to listen to Lynyrd Skynyrd, what of it?

    Has there really been communal violence in the UK?

    1980 – St Pauls riot, April 1980, (St Pauls, Bristol, England)
    1981 – Brixton riot of 1981, (London, England)
    1981 – Toxteth riots (Liverpool, England)
    1981 – Moss Side riots (Manchester, England)
    1981 – Chapeltown riot Leeds, England
    1981 – Handsworth Riots, (Birmingham, England)
    1985 – Brixton riot of 1985, September 28, (London, England)
    1985 – Second Handsworth riots, September 11, (Birmingham, England)
    1985 – Broadwater Farm Riot, Oct. 6, (London, England)
    1987 – Chapeltown riot Leeds, England
    1990 – Salford, (Greater Manchester, UK),
    1991 – Ely Petrol Riots in Cardiff, Wales
    1995 – Brixton riot of 1995, (London, England)
    1995 – Manningham riot, June 1995, (Bradford, West Yorkshire, UK)
    2001 – Oldham Riots, May 2001, (Oldham, Greater Manchester, England)
    2001 – Harehills riot Leeds, June 2001, West Yorkshire, England
    2001 – Bradford Riot, July 2001, (Bradford, England)
    2005 – 2005 Birmingham race riots in Lozells, Birmingham, United Kingdom.
    2011 – Riots in London which spread to other cities in England

    But I do challenge the claim that the UK is characterised by communal violence in any significant and systematic way. . . . This is just not true - it is so untrue it is a lie. Really? Then I suspect that the above is a rather inconvenient reminder? According to our friend these were naught more than some insignificant little skirmishes, play fighting!

    You ask for a definition of multiculturalism and the article provided one.

    The term “multicultural” has come to define both a society that is particularly diverse, usually as a result of immigration, and the policies necessary to manage such a society. It thus embodies both a description of society and a prescription for dealing with it.

    Why this should present a problem I cannot say because the end result of the application of policies is to foment or deal with multiculturalism to produce a functioning homogeneous society whether its the British always emphasising our alleged diversity or the French intent on making everyone a French citizen while ignoring ethnic, religious or cultural differences.

    Yes groups can have their own little niche within a society but don't you dare call that integration for its nothing of the sort.
  10. Account suspended
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    30 Jan '17 09:461 edit
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Aren't you living in a country which has a national Church? Maybe you should go to Jehovah'sWitnessland instead, you cultural outsider.
    The church in Europe is dead! What was once the centre of community albeit for those who could afford a set of Sunday clothes is nothing but an ancient relic. Churches are fascinating places for the historian though but as a focus of community and as a moral force in the community they have no power.
  11. Account suspended
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    30 Jan '17 09:521 edit
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    Multiculturalism hasn't failed though.

    In many instances it's an enormous succes.
    One of the problems is that the right-wing parties here in europe have succeeded in claiming it fails because not everyone is integrated and speaks Dutch (or whatever lingo is spoken in a country).

    That actually was never a goal of multiculturalism. Respect, being able ...[text shortened]... isrupt the system... but you find them in any system, any setting and they're always disruptive.
    The problems that you seem to be facing is that those who migrate to a country fail to integrate and instead form their own little enclave with its own values and customs. This is not multiculturalism, its tribalism. Every one has their quarter, the Chinese Chinatown, the Muslims, their own little enclave. Its a splintered society, there is nothing homogeneous about it.
  12. Germany
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    30 Jan '17 16:58
    Originally posted by Eladar
    I think 1000's point is that like the Nazis, Muslims are only going to be forced out by force and should be done sooner than later to prevent them from gaining a strong foothold in Europe.
    What would you do to "force out" neo-Nazis in Europe?

    Of course, aside from a few high-ranking Nazis, the vast majority of them as well as their allies abroad remained where they were after the war.
  13. Cape Town
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    30 Jan '17 17:45
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Of course, aside from a few high-ranking Nazis, the vast majority of them as well as their allies abroad remained where they were after the war.
    The more highly skilled ones were given jobs in america.
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    30 Jan '17 17:59
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    What would you do to "force out" neo-Nazis in Europe?

    Of course, aside from a few high-ranking Nazis, the vast majority of them as well as their allies abroad remained where they were after the war.
    You mean Europeans? Not sure how you force Europeans out of Europe. If they take power and start being aggressive you wage war early on instead of later.
  15. Germany
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    30 Jan '17 18:15
    Originally posted by Eladar
    You mean Europeans? Not sure how you force Europeans out of Europe. If they take power and start being aggressive you wage war early on instead of later.
    You said the Nazis were "forced out." But they weren't - most of them remained in Germany after the war.
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