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  1. Joined
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    07 Nov '17 13:591 edit
    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/features/taibbi-the-great-college-loan-swindle-w510880

    It is a scam of enormous portions and subjects many Americans to a life of debt serfdom leading to despair. Thanks to the leftists running the academy and a corrupt central government that now controls student loan debt and makes it difficult to discharge in a bankruptcy.

    Imagine if Obama had relieved all student loan debt with some of his enormous deficit spending, rather than enriching the already wealthy donor class.

    Very good column by Matt Taibbi. It will turn your stomach. America...the land of the scam, where the central government PROTECTS the scammers.

    The Great College Loan Swindle
    America as a country has evolved in recent decades into a confederacy of widescale industrial scams. The biggest slices of our economic pie – sectors like health care, military production, banking, even commercial and residential real estate – have become crude income-redistribution schemes, often untethered from the market by subsidies or bailouts, with the richest companies benefiting from gamed or denuded regulatory systems that make profits almost as assured as taxes. Guaranteed-profit scams – that's the last thing America makes with any level of consistent competence.

    The average amount of debt for a student leaving school is skyrocketing even faster than the rate of tuition increase. In 2016, for instance, the average amount of debt for an exiting college graduate was a staggering $37,172. That's a rise of six percent over just the previous year. With the average undergraduate interest rate at about 3.7 percent, the interest alone costs around $115 per month, meaning anyone who can't afford to pay into the principal faces the prospect of $69,000 in payments over 50 years.
  2. Standard membersh76
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    07 Nov '17 14:17
    Originally posted by @whodey
    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/features/taibbi-the-great-college-loan-swindle-w510880

    It is a scam of enormous portions and subjects many Americans to a life of debt serfdom leading to despair. Thanks to the leftists running the academy and a corrupt central government that now controls student loan debt and makes it difficult to discharge in a bank ...[text shortened]... can't afford to pay into the principal faces the prospect of $69,000 in payments over 50 years.
    What is the "scam"? That people want something, borrow money to pay for it and then have to pay it back?
  3. Joined
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    07 Nov '17 14:28
    Bernie's plan of "free college" Of course, this is only for community colleges and not places like Harvard where he would send his children.

    If they are free, they would end up only becoming an extension of high school and be equivalent to a high school diploma.

    Why waste another 4 years of a child's life in high school? Why not do away with high school and send them to a community college if they are going to make community college free?
  4. Joined
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    07 Nov '17 14:311 edit
    Originally posted by @sh76
    What is the "scam"? That people want something, borrow money to pay for it and then have to pay it back?
    The scam is government getting involved in the student loan business. They lower rates so that students can afford every increasing tuition. Then they have laws on the books that make student loan debt the worst debt you can have and the hardest to get out of paying.

    If the government did not get involved, then universities could not be able to raise tuition rates like they do because no one could ever afford the interest in student debt. Universities would then be subject to the ups and downs of an economy like the rest of us instead of being insulated from it with every year being a good economic year for them.
  5. Standard memberfinnegan
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    07 Nov '17 14:58
    Originally posted by @sh76
    What is the "scam"? That people want something, borrow money to pay for it and then have to pay it back?
    The scam is that people need something and are confronted by a toll booth at which capitalists obtain a secure and largely unearned rent. Money makes money and there is no corresponding social benefit. Education is only one of the basic necessities that have been farmed out in this way.

    The education on offer is mis-sold on the basis of promises that cannot be kept.

    Sadly, much can be traced back to Clinton's education policies, emulated in the UK, which were devised without evidence and without competent expertise by a bunch of ideologues and business people presided over by Hillary Clinton in all her sycophantic glory. They appealed to an imagined "knowledge economy" while presiding over the huge transfer of work opportunities from productive manufacturing careers to low paid, highly insecure, service economy slavery. Turns out you have American graduates working in fast food outlets on minimum wage and nevertheless require migrants for the highly skilled, scientific work which was supposed to be the reward for all this borrowing. How the US plans to run a "knowledge economy" around a combination of Creationists and wannabe pop singers I don't know.
  6. Joined
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    07 Nov '17 15:181 edit
    Originally posted by @finnegan
    The scam is that people need something and are confronted by a toll booth at which capitalists obtain a secure and largely unearned rent. Money makes money and there is no corresponding social benefit. Education is only one of the basic necessities that have been farmed out in this way.

    The education on offer is mis-sold on the basis of promises that ...[text shortened]... a "knowledge economy" around a combination of Creationists and wannabe pop singers I don't know.
    The US just brings in immigrants to fill all the high paying jobs that requires skills in math and science cuz the public education system ranks about 48th in the world.

    So they outsource jobs and what high paying jobs are not outsourced they bring in immigrants to fill
  7. Subscriberkmax87
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    07 Nov '17 18:261 edit
    Originally posted by @whodey
    The US just brings in immigrants to fill all the high paying jobs that requires skills in math and science cuz the public education system ranks about 48th in the world.

    So they outsource jobs and what high paying jobs are not outsourced they bring in immigrants to fill
    It's hard to pin down who you have the greatest beef with, in your country.

    It is interesting though, that after all Thurgood Marshall's huge efforts to desegregate the schools, 60 years on it , education outcomes for all students that had improved started on its downward spiral. 1991 marks the year the Supreme Court clawed back protections for desegregated learning, because we all well know how badly Americans hate being told what the right thing to do should be....
  8. Garner, NC
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    07 Nov '17 19:09
    Originally posted by @whodey
    The scam is government getting involved in the student loan business. They lower rates so that students can afford every increasing tuition. Then they have laws on the books that make student loan debt the worst debt you can have and the hardest to get out of paying.

    If the government did not get involved, then universities could not be able to raise tu ...[text shortened]... st of us instead of being insulated from it with every year being a good economic year for them.
    When I went to university, my family had difficulty getting student loans. But that wasn't such a big deal. In-state tuition at a major state university for me was around $400 per semester. After books, room and board, etc, even my middle class family could pay without going into debt.

    But, if the government guarantees $10,000 per semester will be loaned to any and all students (just an example), guess what, tuition will be at least $10,000 per semester. Even if you see the scam clearly, you can't do anything about it. When my kids go to university, we'll either pay through the nose, or let them amass huge debt.

    Don't even get me started about the college text book scam.
  9. Standard memberfinnegan
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    08 Nov '17 01:02
    Originally posted by @kmax87
    It's hard to pin down who you have the greatest beef with, in your country.

    It is interesting though, that after all Thurgood Marshall's huge efforts to desegregate the schools, 60 years on it , education outcomes for all students that had improved started on its downward spiral. 1991 marks the year the Supreme Court clawed back protections for desegregat ...[text shortened]... se we all well know how badly Americans hate being told what the right thing to do should be....
    You risk mixing up different factors when looking to explain educational attainment.

    Trying to pin declining standards on desegregation requires better evidence than a vague and not even supported by evidence alleged correlation.

    Desegregation will also have had most impact in Southern states, where education is also contaminated by religious fundamentalism. In the UK a corresponding problem is the promotion of religious schools instead of secular education.

    The educational changes implemented by Clinton have been replicated in the UK, where desegregation has absolutely nothing to do with anything, and their impact here has been entirely bad. Ideas like a centrally imposed core curriculum, teacher bashing, stressful testing of children at stupidly young ages and school league tables based on absurd performance indicators have been entirely harmful.

    Generally, education in the US has been subject to right wing assaults and spending cuts, just as the Tories set about wrecking it in the UK, and if the neoliberal agenda has not had any impact on performance then that would be a miracle. As the middle class in both countries use their affluence to abandon the public school system, every child gets a worse deal.

    On the whole, I am no education expert and certainly not a US education system expert, but your attempt to pin national decline on desegregation is patently absurd. I am sure some US contributor can hammer than home for us.
  10. Subscriberkmax87
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    08 Nov '17 01:152 edits
    Originally posted by @kmax87
    It's hard to pin down who you have the greatest beef with, in your country.

    It is interesting though, that after all Thurgood Marshall's huge efforts to desegregate the schools, 60 years on it , education outcomes for all students that had improved started on its downward spiral. 1991 marks the year the Supreme Court clawed back protections for desegregat ...[text shortened]... se we all well know how badly Americans hate being told what the right thing to do should be....
    Should not post before going to sleep, the intent gets kind of muddled.

    My point was when all of society had to embrace desegregated learning, the educational outcomes not just of black people improved, but of everybody.

    As successive conservative government's both federal and state and local pushed against the provisions as laid out by Thurgood Marshall's Law, the spiteful let's keep Blackie at arm's length and not let them benefit from our established wealth movement (effectively dog-whistled as something else/first amendment rights etc)effectively re-segregated schooling, which not only stalled black education but stunted white education also and helped usher in place spiralling education costs, as private education became the goal of the middle classes. Once people with money turned their back on public education, the commercialisation of education led to the dysfunction in costs versus outcomes cluster fudge that is America today. Like run away health care costs, the spiralling cost of education is heavily linked to the institutionalised racism hardwired into the system that also from the 80's saw predominantly black men targetted in Reagan's war on drugs. In education, health and social policy, the subtle and not so subtle targetting of African Americans has only morphed into a newer santised version of Jim Crow laws which is at the heart of the social dysfunction that expresses itself in metrics such as America's rank in Mathematics.

    Racism has measurable consequences.
  11. Joined
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    08 Nov '17 13:18
    Originally posted by @kmax87
    Should not post before going to sleep, the intent gets kind of muddled.

    My point was when all of society had to embrace desegregated learning, the educational outcomes not just of black people improved, but of everybody.

    As successive conservative government's both federal and state and local pushed against the provisions as laid out by Thurgood Marsha ...[text shortened]... itself in metrics such as America's rank in Mathematics.

    Racism has measurable consequences.
    We have run away cost in education and healthcare not because of racism but because of the inefficiencies that always come with government involvement. Instead of blindly calling people racist, when you have zero evidence for your statement, consider that people who spend their own dollars on private education, are far more likely to believe that the local school is inadequate rather then they are racist. I taught in an inner city school and the school stunk, not because of the skin color of the students but because of the desire to learn of the students. It its clear to me why students do poorly in math: they spend inadequate amount of time practicing math. Video games, I-phones, and texting are causes, not Reagan's (overzelous desire) to prevent the serious problems associated with addiction. It's a lot easier to call those who have different goal than you racist, but it is often inflammatory and untrue.
  12. Subscriberkmax87
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    08 Nov '17 15:51
    Originally posted by @quackquack
    We have run away cost in education and healthcare not because of racism but because of the inefficiencies that always come with government involvement. Instead of blindly calling people racist, when you have zero evidence for your statement, consider that people who spend their own dollars on private education, are far more likely to believe that the lo ...[text shortened]... to call those who have different goal than you racist, but it is often inflammatory and untrue.
    At the end of the day, neither you nor I are causes of the problem, but rather suffer the symptoms of an inequitable system.

    Most people see themselves as being reasonable decent minded folk and I am sure you are no exception. But you and I do not make or roll out grand policy. Just because the elites tend to be white and make social policy that pits the lower rungs of society against each other, does not mean that you being white(an assumption based on your very "white" argument) are racist also.

    All the missed opportunities since the post Civil War reconstruction non events, that never in any significant way redressed the imbalance wrought by slavery, was a racism on open display when students were first bussed into majority white schools in the early 60's. These protests and ugly shameful scenes may not exist anymore, but not because racism necessarily died out.

    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/jun/25/hillary-clinton/american-schools-are-more-segregated-they-were-196/

    "Classrooms were the most diverse from the 1970s through the early 1990s. At peak integration, four out of 10 black southern students attended a white school, while less than a third of all black students attended black schools."

    "Experts say the backslide was the consequence of a series of judicial decisions, beginning with Milliken vs. Bradley in 1974, a relatively unheard of but seminal case in the desegregation saga. Criticized by some as "one of the worst Supreme Court decisions" ever, Milliken dealt with Detroit’s plan to integrate students by busing them from the intercity to the suburbs. The court ruled that such a plan was unconstitutional, arguing that black students had the right to attend integrated schools within their own school district, but were not protected from de facto segregation."

    "Court-mandated desegregation was dealt its own deadly blow by three rulings from the Supreme Court between 1991 and 1995. According to the court, integration was only a temporary federal policy and after the historical imbalance was righted, school districts should reclaim local control and were released from desegregation orders.

    Since then, school segregation has been intrinsically tied to the racial gaps in housing and income, leading to the re-emergence of the color line. Economic segregation, which disproportionately affects black and Latino students, is increasing, pointed out Orfield. He noted that in California, Asian and white students are 10 times more likely to go to a high-quality school than Latinos and therefore dramatically more likely to attend college.

    "We’ve lost something very vital," he said. "Inequality is very related to the double segregation of low-income racial minorities and (their) isolation from the middle class, from the best teachers, the best curriculum. That has become very profound."
  13. Joined
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    08 Nov '17 17:06
    Originally posted by @kmax87
    At the end of the day, neither you nor I are causes of the problem, but rather suffer the symptoms of an inequitable system.

    Most people see themselves as being reasonable decent minded folk and I am sure you are no exception. But you and I do not make or roll out grand policy. Just because the elites tend to be white and make social policy that pits the ...[text shortened]... m the middle class, from the best teachers, the best curriculum. That has become very profound."
    I don't see the world through the lens you see it. First and most importantly, I don't believe that elites make social policy that pits the lower rungs of society against each other. It would be far more accurate to say that people clearly see their own interests and tend to promote ideas that further those interests. I simply don't share the idea that there are "evil" policy makers that further their power by causing divisiveness among ordinary people.
    Second, I don't believe in busing. If you want to improve school, even focus on schools in bad areas -- fine. But to say that schools in certain areas are bad and then send the same people who ruined those schools into good schools is not something I support. Communities make a choice on whether they value education. I live in a place where taxes are extra high because I would rather spend a disproportionate amount of my income on their education. Communities which don't share the tax bill, can't then complain that they don't have the same quality schools.
    Third, I believe that while politically convenient, it is ridiculous to attribute imbalances due to events that occurred 150 years ago. Most of this country came here due to tragedy elsewhere. My ancestors were farmers in a non-English speaking European country. They came to NYC not knowing the language, not having urban skills or money. They managed. Others came due to famine and other political events. No one was sympathetic. No one helped them. They faced stigma and prejudice. People succeeded or failed because of their own efforts. The answer can't always be that those who succeed need to more for those who do not. We have come to a point where the correct answer is to tell those who failed that they need to do more for themselves.
  14. Subscriberno1marauder
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    08 Nov '17 17:13
    Originally posted by @quackquack
    I don't see the world through the lens you see it. First and most importantly, I don't believe that elites make social policy that pits the lower rungs of society against each other. It would be far more accurate to say that people clearly see their own interests and tend to promote ideas that further those interests. I simply don't share the idea th ...[text shortened]... t where the correct answer is to tell those who failed that they need to do more for themselves.
    In your FairyLand, all prejudice and discrimination has magically disappeared from this country.

    That is a sick joke as is your thinly veiled racist comments blaming urban minorities for the failure of the education system.
  15. Subscriberkmax87
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    08 Nov '17 17:16
    Originally posted by @quackquack
    I don't see the world through the lens you see it. First and most importantly, I don't believe that elites make social policy that pits the lower rungs of society against each other. It would be far more accurate to say that people clearly see their own interests and tend to promote ideas that further those interests. I simply don't share the idea th ...[text shortened]... t where the correct answer is to tell those who failed that they need to do more for themselves.
    Your version of events is incredibly myopic. To call an eqivalence between your forebears who were poor immigrants from a non English speaking country to slaves who never had the luxury of simply being able to blend in after a couple of generations becasue the colour of your skin did not immediately cause people to react irrationally around you. Tell me how many family members of yours had to cross a picket line just to go to school?
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