Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Zugzwang
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    07 Feb '19 22:532 edits
    This has been proposed by Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and (the much less publicized) Ed Markey.
    Here are some different views:

    http://inthesetimes.com/article/21726/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-green-new-deal-democrats-legislation-nancy-pelosi

    "Why Is the Political Establishment So Afraid of Ocasio-Cortez’s Green New Deal?"

    "This attitude was perhaps best encapsulated by House Speaker
    Nancy Pelosi’s glib mockery of the Green New Deal plan ...
    Pelosi referred to the proposal as “the green dream or whatever they call it.”
    She went on to suggest that the plan had not been thought through,
    saying, “nobody knows what it is, but they’re for it, right?”"

    "Rep. Doug Lamborn (R-CO), meanwhile, turned to red-baiting, saying
    the Green New Deal “sounds too much like a Soviet five-year plan.”"

    "Pelosi herself has directly aided this anti-socialist appeal. At a
    CNN Town Hall event in 2017, Pelosi was asked by a New York University
    student, who cited the growing popularity of socialist policies among
    Democrats, whether the party “could move farther left to a more
    populist message?” She responded, “We’re capitalists, and that’s
    just the way it is.”"

    "This opposition to democratic socialist policies helps explain why
    Pelosi has been so resistant to embrace the Democrats’ rising left
    flank that wants to see immediate action on redistributing wealth
    and power away from the top echelons of society."

    "She (Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez) went on to point out the long term
    failure of a market fundamentalist approach to environmental policy
    in dealing with climate change. “We have tried their approach for
    40 years—to let the private sector take care of it,” she explained,
    laying out a case for massive government intervention that–until
    recently–has rarely surfaced in mainstream political discourse."
  2. Zugzwang
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    07 Feb '19 22:59
    http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/02/democrats-need-a-climate-plan-the-green-new-deal-isnt-it.html

    "Democrats Need an Ambitious Climate Plan. The Green New Deal Isn’t It."

    "“Green New Deal,” for which a blueprint was unveiled by New York representative
    Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Massachusetts senator Ed Markey. The strategy they
    have produced is at best grossly undercooked, and at worst fatally misconceived."

    "On the policy, the Green New Deal simply outlines ambitious targets for carbon
    reductions, without delving into specifics as to how the targets will be met.
    In place of detail it offers optimism."

    "How to explain this curious lack of ambition? Simple: All these things divide progressive activists.
    Some of the most committed environmentalists got involved in the movement in
    the 1970s, before climate change was a major issue but when the left identified
    nuclear power with the Cold War and Three Mile Island. This mind-set shaped the
    thinking of enough environmentalists that their allies in the movement feel compelled
    to respect them despite overwhelming evidence that nuclear power, which does
    not emit greenhouse gasses, needs to fill some of the void left by phasing out fossil fuels."

    "While rightly insisting on the primacy of climate change, it betrays its own
    confidence by submerging climate policy into a broader array of priorities.
    It simultaneously argues that we must move with urgent speed on climate,
    but that we must first achieve comprehensive socialism in order to move."
  3. Joined
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    07 Feb '19 23:001 edit
    @Duchess64

    When cornered on how to pay for it, AOC becomes indignant and says that such questions are meaningless since the world will be destroyed in 12 years anyway.

    So how are people suppose to take her seriously with such talk?

    Preliminary cost estimates are in, $7 Trillion. As with all government programs that estimate, no doubt, will double or triple.
  4. Subscriberno1marauder
    Humble and Kind
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    07 Feb '19 23:13
    @whodey said
    @Duchess64

    When cornered on how to pay for it, AOC becomes indignant and says that such questions are meaningless since the world will be destroyed in 12 years anyway.

    So how are people suppose to take her seriously with such talk?

    Preliminary cost estimates are in, $7 Trillion. As with all government programs that estimate, no doubt, will double or triple.
    Who came up with that "cost estimate"? The Daily Caller?
  5. Subscriberno1marauder
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    07 Feb '19 23:18
    @duchess64 said
    This has been proposed by Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and (the much less publicized) Ed Markey.
    Here are some different views:

    http://inthesetimes.com/article/21726/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-green-new-deal-democrats-legislation-nancy-pelosi

    "Why Is the Political Establishment So Afraid of Ocasio-Cortez’s Green New Deal?"

    "This attitude was perhaps best encapsulated by ...[text shortened]... overnment intervention that–until
    recently–has rarely surfaced in mainstream political discourse."
    The Dems should have dumped Pelosi for this among many other reasons. She has no vision for the future of the party.

    What has been proposed so far is a nonbinding resolution that draws broad strokes but does commit to the idea of stopping the rise in carbon emissions. Of course it will need to be fleshed out by specific policy proposals which will have to be negotiated but it remains an important first step to commit to these goals.
  6. Zugzwang
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    07 Feb '19 23:551 edit
    @no1marauder said
    The Dems should have dumped Pelosi for this among many other reasons. She has no vision for the future of the party.

    What has been proposed so far is a nonbinding resolution that draws broad strokes but does commit to the idea of stopping the rise in carbon emissions. Of course it will need to be fleshed out by specific policy proposals which will have to be negotiated but it remains an important first step to commit to these goals.
    https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/07/politics/pelosi-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-green-new-deal/index.html

    "Nancy Pelosi just threw some serious shade at Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's 'Green New Deal'"

    "Pelosi knows exactly what she's doing here. Her utter dismissiveness of the "Green New Deal" --
    and, by extension, AOC, who is the member most closely identified with it, is entirely intentional."

    "Earlier this year, Ocasio-Cortez was passed over for a spot on the powerful Ways and
    Means Committee despite the fact that Joe Crowley, who she beat in a primary last
    summer, had a seat on Ways and Means. That decision didn't come by accident --
    and it didn't come without Pelosi knowing about it and likely directing it."

    "The idea that because Ocasio-Cortez has lent her name and support to the
    "Green New Deal," then Pelosi has to suddenly change her legislative plans on
    how to address climate change, is anathema to Pelosi."
  7. Joined
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    08 Feb '19 02:57
    @duchess64 said
    http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/02/democrats-need-a-climate-plan-the-green-new-deal-isnt-it.html

    "Democrats Need an Ambitious Climate Plan. The Green New Deal Isn’t It."

    "“Green New Deal,” for which a blueprint was unveiled by New York representative
    Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Massachusetts senator Ed Markey. The strategy they
    have produced is at best grossl ...[text shortened]... urgent speed on climate,
    but that we must first achieve comprehensive socialism in order to move."
    Difficult to follow the above, do the ' " ' at end of each paragraph depict that it is an entire writing of someone else, or is that you speaking?
  8. Joined
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    08 Feb '19 11:15
    @no1marauder said
    Who came up with that "cost estimate"? The Daily Caller?
    Ok, what does the Huffington Post say it will cost, or do you agree with AOC that cost does not matter cuz we will all be dead in 12 years if we don't raise taxes?
  9. SubscriberWOLFE63
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    08 Feb '19 13:00
    @averagejoe1 said
    Difficult to follow the above, do the ' " ' at end of each paragraph depict that it is an entire writing of someone else, or is that you speaking?
    It's what she does big man.
    Provocation through partial-plagiarism is her game.
  10. Joined
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    08 Feb '19 15:22
    The case needs to be made for this proposal. If you Lefties can't tell me how much it will cost and how raising taxes on the top 1% will work, then perhaps you need to rethink the whole thing.

    Assuming the government gets its hands on 70% of all income earned over $10 million, how many households would get taxed at that level and how much would that bring in to pay for the unknown amount of trillions of dollars?
  11. Joined
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    08 Feb '19 15:312 edits
    @whodey said
    The case needs to be made for this proposal. If you Lefties can't tell me how much it will cost and how raising taxes on the top 1% will work, then perhaps you need to rethink the whole thing.

    Assuming the government gets its hands on 70% of all income earned over $10 million, how many households would get taxed at that level and how much would that bring in to pay for the unknown amount of trillions of dollars?
    What difference does it make to know these things, to someone who’s against it in principle?
  12. Joined
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    08 Feb '19 16:47
    @js357 said
    What difference does it make to know these things, to someone who’s against it in principle?
    I dunno Hillary, what difference does it make?

    Honestly, if you expect people to embrace trillions of dollars in taxation and a major overhaul of the economy, you may want to provide a few details.

    Just say'in.

    Or you can abide by the Pelosi doctrine, "You must first pass it to find out what is in it:"

    Sure, it worked great for Obamacare that they now say no longer works and needs to be replaced by their new health care plan?

    Crazy stuff.
  13. Joined
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    08 Feb '19 18:292 edits
    Still no rebuttal on how much all this is going to cost?

    Not surprised.

    I'm wondering if I'm suppose to support this cuz AOC is cute.

    If so, it is comparable to going to a bar and waking up the next day and realizing your wallet is gone
  14. Joined
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    08 Feb '19 18:34
    @wolfe63 said
    It's what she does big man.
    Provocation through partial-plagiarism is her game.
    This sentence is at the end of one of her paragraphs above... “...but that we must first achieve comprehensive socialism in order to achieve.” You are right, a lot of her stuff is just blah blah of what other people have said (really bad form in a debate), and not only uninteresting and belabored, but taken as a whole doesn’t make any sense. Is she saying that sentence above, or is it somebody else?

    And Duchess is the very one that jumps on anyone for committing grammatical errors.
  15. Joined
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    08 Feb '19 18:43
    Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is correct. The proposal is not a bill at this point. Yes, dealing with climate change will be expensive. Not dealing with climate change will cost far more in terms of wealth, land lost to the sea and lives lost as well. It is shocking that Trump made no mention of the environment or climate change in his State of the Union Address.
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