Please turn on javascript in your browser to play chess.
Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. 07 Feb '10 22:04
    Israeli historian (Tel Aviv University) Shlomo Sand writes in his book "The Invention of the Jewish People" that the Diaspora, one of the fundamental justifications for Zionism and an icon of Jewish culture, is essentially built on lies and misunderstandings.

    http://inventionofthejewishpeople.com/

    Debate!
  2. 07 Feb '10 22:15
    yawn
  3. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    07 Feb '10 23:17
    Originally posted by scherzo
    Israeli historian (Tel Aviv University) Shlomo Sand writes in his book "The Invention of the Jewish People" that the Diaspora, one of the fundamental justifications for Zionism and an icon of Jewish culture, is essentially built on lies and misunderstandings.

    http://inventionofthejewishpeople.com/

    Debate!
    I've read through that page on the link and I still can't figure out exactly what Mr. Sand's thesis is. Maybe you could explain to me exactly what he's trying to say?
  4. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    07 Feb '10 23:23 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by sh76
    I've read through that page on the link and I still can't figure out exactly what Mr. Sand's thesis is. Maybe you could explain to me exactly what he's trying to say?
    Maybe this will help: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/966952.html

    He seems to be saying that Judaism was spread by conversion into large areas of Europe and North Africa rather than being brought to those areas by the exile of Jews from ancient Israel.

    EDIT: From the article: In this work, the author attempts to prove that the Jews now living in Israel and other places in the world are not at all descendants of the ancient people who inhabited the Kingdom of Judea during the First and Second Temple period. Their origins, according to him, are in varied peoples that converted to Judaism during the course of history, in different corners of the Mediterranean Basin and the adjacent regions. Not only are the North African Jews for the most part descendants of pagans who converted to Judaism, but so are the Jews of Yemen (remnants of the Himyar Kingdom in the Arab Peninsula, who converted to Judaism in the fourth century) and the Ashkenazi Jews of Eastern Europe (refugees from the Kingdom of the Khazars, who converted in the eighth century).
  5. 07 Feb '10 23:55
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Maybe this will help: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/966952.html

    He seems to be saying that Judaism was spread by conversion into large areas of Europe and North Africa rather than being brought to those areas by the exile of Jews from ancient Israel.

    EDIT: From the article: In this work, the author attempts to prove that the Jew ...[text shortened]... Eastern Europe (refugees from the Kingdom of the Khazars, who converted in the eighth century).
    He uses cultural, political, historical, and genetic evidence to prove this.
  6. 08 Feb '10 07:53
    well, so?

    how does that differ from Islam?
  7. 08 Feb '10 08:27
    Sand's book makes some valid points related to conversion to Judaism, but he exaggerates the extent to which Jews descend from these converts.

    Sand took some ideas from Paul Wexler as well as from books by Arthur Koestler, myself ( "The Jews of Khazaria", http://www.khazaria.com/brook.html ), and many others. For instance he talked about the ideas, also reported in my book, that the Yiddish words yarmulka and davenen come from Turkic. Those ideas (researched by Herbert Zeiden) are at least credible, whereas many of Wexler's and Koestler's ideas are often wild speculations.

    Where Sand fails most severely is in the realm of genetics, which he has no direct experience with. His attempt to discredit the genetic tests on Jewish populations as "dubious and scanty" no longer holds water. Back in the 1990s it made sense to criticize the studies that existed then, because they had low sample sizes and not enough data for comparison. Now we can genetically prove that Samaritans, Karaites, Ashkenazi Jews, Sephardi Jews, and Mizrahi Jews are all related to each other, and the only way that is possible is due to common descent from ancient Israelites.

    - Kevin Brook
  8. 08 Feb '10 09:46
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Maybe this will help: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/966952.html

    He seems to be saying that Judaism was spread by conversion into large areas of Europe and North Africa rather than being brought to those areas by the exile of Jews from ancient Israel.

    EDIT: From the article: In this work, the author attempts to prove that the Jew ...[text shortened]... Eastern Europe (refugees from the Kingdom of the Khazars, who converted in the eighth century).
    He seems to be saying that Judaism was spread by conversion into large areas of Europe and North Africa rather than being brought to those areas by the exile of Jews from ancient Israel.

    Surely, everyone who has ever seen a white jew already knows this?
  9. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    08 Feb '10 10:59
    Originally posted by zeeblebot
    well, so? how does that differ from Islam?
    Islam isn't an "ethnicity".
  10. 08 Feb '10 11:01
    Originally posted by FMF
    Islam isn't an "ethnicity".
    And now we know that jewishness isn't either.
    No difference...
  11. 08 Feb '10 11:40
    Originally posted by sh76
    I've read through that page on the link and I still can't figure out exactly what Mr. Sand's thesis is. Maybe you could explain to me exactly what he's trying to say?
    If you read every other letter they form words and is a code for them taking over the banks which, in turn, will be one step in taking over the world!! You know, those Jews are into codes, kinda like the Bible code. In fact, if you type in Scherzo in a computer program designed to break Bible codes, you read the words, "Knows to much".
  12. 08 Feb '10 11:41
    Originally posted by FMF
    Islam isn't an "ethnicity".
    Its an adventure!!
  13. 08 Feb '10 13:21
    Originally posted by scherzo
    Israeli historian (Tel Aviv University) Shlomo Sand writes in his book "The Invention of the Jewish People" that the Diaspora, one of the fundamental justifications for Zionism and an icon of Jewish culture, is essentially built on lies and misunderstandings.

    http://inventionofthejewishpeople.com/

    Debate!
    Oh Allah, you again!
  14. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    08 Feb '10 14:32 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Maybe this will help: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/966952.html

    He seems to be saying that Judaism was spread by conversion into large areas of Europe and North Africa rather than being brought to those areas by the exile of Jews from ancient Israel.

    EDIT: From the article: In this work, the author attempts to prove that the Jew ...[text shortened]... Eastern Europe (refugees from the Kingdom of the Khazars, who converted in the eighth century).
    Okay; now I understand.

    What was KN's reaction?

    Oh, yeah.



    <yawn>




    Seriously, who cares?
  15. 08 Feb '10 17:25
    Originally posted by FMF
    Islam isn't an "ethnicity".
    Judaism isn't "either".