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Debates Forum

  1. Standard member adam warlock
    Baby Gauss
    18 Sep '09 15:55
    I can proudly say that Obama never tricked me. I knew he was going to be just another USA mainstream politician since day one I saw him. Don't ask me what was the thing that showed his true colors to me but it was there...

    Anyway after his initially status as the Messiah of the USA (and consequently of the world) he's starting to get some criticism. The accusations of him being a socialist are stronger than ever, and his bail out plan was under attack too.

    From what I've reading some people complain that the Left (and the mainstream concept of Left in the USA is just laughable) is cutting too much of a slack and should criticize his actions more. Well I got news for you. That's exactly what the left has been doing ever since his campaign to be the next USA's president. But since their criticism was rational and evidence based of course people didn't read much about it in the mainstream media.

    Without further ado here you some recent pieces on the Obama policies:
    http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090928/scahill3/2
    http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090928/scheer

    So to the Americans I ask: why do you see this man as being a leftist? What do you understand to be the political left and what home examples of it do you have?
  2. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    18 Sep '09 16:09 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by adam warlock
    So to the Americans I ask: why do you see this man as being a leftist? What do you understand to be the political left and what home examples of it do you have?
    First of all, I don't see him as being a leftist. I see him as being a moderate who leans left. As a frame of reference, I see myself as a moderate who leans right.

    I agree that the actions of the administration so far have been, at worst, centrist. His campaign promises were leaning left.

    Second of all, I don't get all this talk of Americans mischaracterizing left and right. Obviously, "left" and "right" are relative. What is left in the US may not be left in Sweden. But that's not the point. When people say an American politician is "left," they mean relative to his median AMERICAN constituents, not relative to the median person in the World.
  3. Standard member Palynka
    Upward Spiral
    18 Sep '09 16:10
    When will the extreme left realize they do not own the whole spectrum of the left?
  4. Standard member adam warlock
    Baby Gauss
    18 Sep '09 16:15
    Originally posted by Palynka
    When will the extreme left realize they do not own the whole spectrum of the left?
    Is the Democratic Party in the USA left to you?
    Don't you think that saying that the left doesn't criticize Obama is wrong?
  5. Standard member adam warlock
    Baby Gauss
    18 Sep '09 16:20
    Originally posted by sh76
    First of all, I don't see him as being a leftist. I see him as being a moderate who leans left. As a frame of reference, I see myself as a moderate who leans right.

    I agree that the actions of the administration so far have been, at worst, centrist. His campaign promises were leaning left.

    Second of all, I don't get all this talk of Americans mischaracter ...[text shortened]... ve to his median AMERICAN constituents, not relative to the median person in the World.
    Well if you only think in terms of democrats and republicans, than in a majority of issues the democrats are to left of the republicans. But since there are a lot more political forces in the USA defining the left on those two parties alone is extremely naive don't you think?

    In what regards is campaign being leftist in Nature i have to disagree with you. But I won't argument about it now because I'm just too lazy to write it all up.
  6. 18 Sep '09 16:34 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by adam warlock
    From what I've reading some people complain that the Left (and the mainstream concept of Left in the USA is just laughable) is cutting too much of a slack and should criticize his actions more. Well I got news for you. That's exactly what the left has been doing ever since his campaign to be the next USA's president.
    So when did the far left become a bunch of racists, or at least have the critisims "rooted" in racism?
  7. Standard member Palynka
    Upward Spiral
    18 Sep '09 16:36 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by adam warlock
    Is the Democratic Party in the USA left to you?
    Don't you think that saying that the left doesn't criticize Obama is wrong?
    Left, right, etc. are just labels. Many parties on the fringe of the left tend to accuse center-left parties of not being left enough. Hello? That's why they are to the right of them in the political spectrum!

    If you don't like some policy, say so and why. Saying he isn't left or that the left must criticize him because he is not "left enough" is a lazy argument.

    Summing up: Left/Right is a more relative than absolute concept to me. What is very leftist in a country may not be so elsewhere.
  8. 18 Sep '09 16:42 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by adam warlock
    So to the Americans I ask: why do you see this man as being a leftist? What do you understand to be the political left and what home examples of it do you have?[/b]
    As far as him being a leftist, he is left of center in reference to the right of center of the average American Joe. He gets his reputation by the people that surrounds him, such as the now resigned Czar and Cass etc etc. I will not bore you with the details because they have been rehashed here time and again. In addition, he is affiliated with Reverend Wright who was mixed up with the leftists Black Liberation Movement which has been well documented on this site. In fact, I started a thread about it a while back. In addition, he has consistantly favored redistribution of wealth polices which have been well docmented on this site. All I can say is, if you have been following all the threads here, I'm not sure how you could not see why people think of him as a leftists.

    Now as far as his policies that are not leftists, he has to survive politically in a system in which the voters lean to the right. Otherwise he is welcomed to completely kiss goodbye any chance of reelection. If he is a politician, he will do what he needs to in order to get reelected.....that is if he has not already crossed that line already.
  9. Subscriber duecer
    anybody seen my
    18 Sep '09 17:13
    Originally posted by adam warlock
    Is the Democratic Party in the USA left to you?
    wrong?
    I like Karl Marx what do you think?
  10. 18 Sep '09 18:05
    Originally posted by duecer
    I like Karl Marx what do you think?
    Then I am guessing you are satisfied with the Congress.
  11. Subscriber duecer
    anybody seen my
    18 Sep '09 18:26
    Originally posted by quackquack
    Then I am guessing you are satisfied with the Congress.
    a little too conservative for my taste, but it could be worse.
  12. 18 Sep '09 19:39
    Originally posted by sh76
    First of all, I don't see him as being a leftist. I see him as being a moderate who leans left. As a frame of reference, I see myself as a moderate who leans right.

    I agree that the actions of the administration so far have been, at worst, centrist. His campaign promises were leaning left.

    Second of all, I don't get all this talk of Americans mischaracter ...[text shortened]... ve to his median AMERICAN constituents, not relative to the median person in the World.
    I believe that at his core, Obama is a mainstream "liberal" -- definitely to the left of center, but well within the mainstream of the Democratic Party. If he had remained a Senator, I doubt he would have ever become a "blue dog". And it does appear that the people he prefers to "hang out with" have a definite leftward bias.

    But on the other hand, Obama is also a huge believer of bipartisanship - his ideal is to have legislation that can get like 80% of the votes - and that he's willing to make big compromises to get this done. Which makes many a liberal ready to strangle him.

    One of the big problems for Obama has been having to deal with a reality in which true bipartisanship is impossible. Almost everyone in the GOP is playing the "we hope he fails" strategy - and the liberal Democrats are strongly resisting any appeals to the center, let alone to the right. But Obama keeps holding out hope. The result is a certain spinelessness that has been slow to lead, while deferring legislative authority to the Democrats.
  13. Standard member adam warlock
    Baby Gauss
    18 Sep '09 19:41
    Originally posted by Palynka
    Left, right, etc. are just labels. Many parties on the fringe of the left tend to accuse center-left parties of not being left enough. Hello? That's why they are to the right of them in the political spectrum!

    If you don't like some policy, say so and why. Saying he isn't left or that the left must criticize him because he is not "left enough" is a lazy ...[text shortened]... ive than absolute concept to me. What is very leftist in a country may not be so elsewhere.
    I agree with you that left/right are labels, but nonetheless I consider them useful labels. And I suspect that we agree that the conbcept of left and right varies with geography and with time.

    One the reasons that makes me not consider the Democrat Party as a left party is the fact that they are as caught up in corporatism as the Republican Party. And traditionally the left isn't associated with corporatism.
    I already said that the republicans are to the right of the democrats, but that doesn't make the democrats being left.
    Home example: is the PSD left just because they are to the left of CDS? And don't take this comparison too literally please.

    So you'll run away from my questions under the banner that left/right is a relative concept huh? (just kidding but I'd like to see an answer from you)
  14. Standard member adam warlock
    Baby Gauss
    18 Sep '09 19:43
    Originally posted by duecer
    I like Karl Marx what do you think?
    What does this means?

    What do I think of you liking Karl Marx?

    I think you have the right to like whoever you like... But do you want to engage in some sort of debate in Marx's ideas?
  15. Standard member adam warlock
    Baby Gauss
    18 Sep '09 19:44 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by whodey
    So when did the far left become a bunch of racists, or at least have the critisims "rooted" in racism?
    You missed the part of the criticism by the left not being very much present in mainstream media didn't you?

    And do you think that leftists can't be racists? Well I got news for you: they can.