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  1. 18 Feb '17 21:42
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/18/the-middle-east-peace-process-myth-donald-trump-ended-it

    "The Middle East 'peace process' was a myth. Donald Trump ended it.
    The final interment of the already moribund ‘two-state solution’ would
    force all concerned to face what is obvious to any honest observer."
    --Rashid Khalidi

    Rashid Khalidi, a US citizen (born in New York City) of Palestinian heritage,
    is a professor at Columbia University and editor of the 'Journal of Palestine Studies'.
    After Edward Said's death, Rashid Khalidi's probably the leading
    Palestinian public intellectual in the United States.

    "For decades, Israeli governments, pursuing the colonization of the
    entirety of “Eretz Israel,” have systematically destroyed the
    prerequisites for a solution involving a contiguous, sustainable,
    sovereign Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital. Nevertheless,
    the myth that a real Palestinian state is on offer, and that there actually
    is a genuine “peace process,” endures as one of the greatest
    examples of magical thinking in modern times.

    That myth has been crucial for the continuation of Israel’s permanent
    occupation and unending colonization of the West Bank and Arab East
    Jerusalem, shielding it from any serious international pressure.

    The final interment of the already moribund “two-state solution” would
    force all concerned to face what is obvious to any honest observer. For
    decades, an imposed reality of one-state – the only sovereign entity
    enjoying total security control – has existed between the Jordan River
    and the Mediterranean. This one state is Israel. Irrespective of the label
    one uses for it, this is the only outcome that this Israeli government will
    accept, whatever subaltern, or helot, or “autonomous” status it deigns
    to allow the Palestinians."

    "It matters little whether this travesty is called a one-state or a two-state “solution,”
    or whether the Palestinians get the right to fly a flag over such a pitiful Bantustan."

    "American presidents since Clinton have insisted on a Palestinian
    state, have condemned settlement expansion, and have tried to rein in
    the most egregious excesses of the Israeli government, while financing
    and defending at the UN the very activities they supposedly opposed.
    These feeble positions are now eroding.

    Having just cast doubt on the two state solution, Trump stood by
    complaisantly while Netanyahu laid out preconditions universally
    recognized as deal-breakers for the Palestinians: besides permanent
    Israeli control of their “state,” he demanded recognition of Israel as a
    Jewish state, a designation that no other country is required to accept,
    and something Israeli itself has not formally adopted. Similarly, while
    Trump asked Israel to “hold back on settlements a little bit,” his
    administration has not responded to the massive settlement expansion
    announced by the Israeli government in recent weeks."

    "In any case, only a complete break with the failed strategies of the
    feeble leaderships in Ramallah and Gaza can provide a genuine
    alternative to the grotesque future of unending dispossession and
    oppression that Trump and Netanyahu envision for them."
  2. 18 Feb '17 22:03
    Miko Peled, an Israeli Jew, was born in Jerusalem (son of a famous general and grandson
    of a signer of Israel's Declaration of Independence). He grew up among Israel's elite,
    absorbing the Zionist myths. He qualified for the IDF's elite special forces, but he
    became disillusioned by Israel's 1982 invasion of Lebanon. He emigrated to the USA.
    He discovered that he had more in common with Palestinian immigrants than with most American Jews.
    He began to know, respect, and like Palestinians as human beings. In doing so, he also
    began to question his Zionist beliefs over Jewish supremacy over the Palestinians.
    Miko Peled now has become a peace activist and a critic of Israel's oppression of the Palestinians.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miko_Peled

    Miko Peled has written a memoir _The General's Son_ (now in its second edition).
    Here's a link to his blog:
    https://mikopeled.com/

    "The options for those who seek peace in Palestine/Israel are as follows: An apartheid
    state with exclusive rights for Jewish people. A state with a brutal security apparatus
    where half the population are forced to live with little or no rights and in intolerable
    conditions. A state where million live without access to proper nutrition, medical care or
    clean water, condemned to humiliating long lines at checkpoints, or a free, democratic
    Palestine with equal rights for all people who live between the Jordan River and the
    Mediterranean Sea. Peaceful coexistence can be a reality in Palestine, but only once a
    real democracy is achieved and the rights of al Palestinians are respected – including
    the right of the refugees to return.

    Before Miko came to hold such a vision, he had to face his fears. Driving alone in the to
    Palestinian towns in the Galilee or the West Bank in a car with license plates that
    identified him as Israeli, Miko imagined Arabs lurking behind every curve of the winding
    road following the rolling hills waiting to kill him. Heading towards the village of Bil’in for
    the first time, he silently questioned if he was crazy to trust “these people”? Peled was
    afraid but kept on driving until he found the village and was greeted by friends.

    The solution might be obvious but the problem remains, how to change the existing
    paradigm– from fear and loathing to coexistence? At the heart of Peled’s solution lies
    the realization that Israelis and Palestinians deserve to live in peace as equals."

    If Miko Peled represented Israel and Rashid Khalidi represented the Palestinians, then there
    would be peace and even some (though far from complete) measure of justice for the Palestinians.
    But, given the extreme pro-Israeli bias that dominates US politics and the US media,
    few Americans seem to be aware of their voices.
  3. 18 Feb '17 22:11 / 1 edit
    I have never believed the Israelis to be superior. I have always believed and still believe that given the chance the Palestineans will make their own one state solution and wide the Israelis off the earth.

    Well maybe not all the Israelis, just enough left to be a small irrelevant group of people.
  4. 18 Feb '17 22:33 / 1 edit
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/aug/07/comment

    "I would have done the same:
    My son was killed by a Palestinian fighter. But Israel's occupation is to blame for his death."
    --Yitzhak Frankenthal (an Israeli Jew)

    "My son Arik was born into a democracy with a chance for a decent, settled life. Arik's
    killer was born into an appalling occupation, into an ethical chaos. Had my son been
    born in his stead, he may have ended up doing the same. Had I myself been born into
    the political and ethical chaos that is the Palestinians' daily reality, I would certainly
    have tried to kill and hurt the occupier; had I not, I would have betrayed my essence as
    a free man. Let all the self-righteous who speak of ruthless Palestinian murderers take
    a hard look in the mirror and ask themselves what they would have done had they been
    the ones living under occupation. I can say for myself that I, Yitzhak Frankenthal, would
    have undoubtedly become a freedom fighter and would have killed as many on the
    other side as I possibly could. It is this depraved hypocrisy that pushes the Palestinians
    to fight us relentlessly."

    "My son Arik was murdered when he was a soldier by Palestinian fighters who believed
    in the ethical basis of their struggle against the occupation. My son Arik was not
    murdered because he was Jewish but because he is part of the nation that occupies
    the territory of another. I know these are concepts that are unpalatable, but I must voice
    them loud and clear, because they come from my heart - the heart of a father whose
    son did not get to live because his people were blinded with power.

    As much as I would like to do so, I cannot say that the Palestinians are to blame for my
    son's death. That would be the easy way out, but it is we, Israelis, who are to blame
    because of the occupation. Anyone who refuses to heed this awful truth will eventually
    lead to our destruction.

    The Palestinians cannot drive us away - they have long acknowledged our existence.
    They have been ready to make peace with us; it is we who are unwilling to make peace
    with them. It is we who insist on maintaining our control over them; it is we who escalate
    the situation in the region and feed the cycle of bloodshed. I regret to say it, but the
    blame is entirely ours."

    Yitzhak Frankenthal's an Israeli Jew who's honest enough to recognize the Palestinian
    right to resist--including by armed struggle--Israel's continuing military occupation.
  5. Subscriber mchill
    cryptogram
    19 Feb '17 10:49
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/18/the-middle-east-peace-process-myth-donald-trump-ended-it

    "The Middle East 'peace process' was a myth. Donald Trump ended it.
    The final interment of the already moribund ‘two-state solution’ would
    force all concerned to face what is obvious to any honest observer."
    --Rashid Khalidi

    Rashid Khal ...[text shortened]... e future of unending dispossession and
    oppression that Trump and Netanyahu envision for them."
    There is never going to be a solution to the Israeli - Palestinian situation, no matter how one looks at it. Both sides claim the same piece of land, and that's not going to change, ever.
  6. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    19 Feb '17 10:55
    The Israelis will not make peace because they believe they can have what they want by force and can continue with their creeping strategy to create a Greater Israel.

    The suggestion that the Palestinians would like to achieve their aims by force is not credible but, as a hypothetical idea - a mere fantasy - can be allowed, because it changes nothing. They have almost zero power against the most powerful military machine in the region, with its backers in the USA. What they have is only their dreams.

    There will be no peace until a mediator emerges willing to deploy sufficient authority - based on real power - to force the parties to settle. In the current environment only the USA has the power to mediate peace.

    The shameful reality is that the USA has allowed itself to be exploited on the side of the powerful and against the weak. This is not least because of the support for the zionist / Greater Israel project from the Evangelical Christian right in the USA, of which Mike Pence is the latest representative.

    But get this clear- the USA has the power and the responsibility to achieve either peace or war in that region and is using its influence to create divison, warfare and mayhem in the interests of a racist project.
  7. 19 Feb '17 14:44
    Originally posted by mchill
    There is never going to be a solution to the Israeli - Palestinian situation, no matter how one looks at it. Both sides claim the same piece of land, and that's not going to change, ever.
    There is only one solution for Europeans and theit Muslim buddies, the Final Solution.
  8. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    19 Feb '17 16:28
    Originally posted by Eladar
    There is only one solution for Europeans and theit Muslim buddies, the Final Solution.
    You are deploying irrational and abusive arguments because you have no logical ones. This particular line of argument is offensive and does not merit a serious reply.
  9. 19 Feb '17 16:31
    Originally posted by finnegan
    You are deploying irrational and abusive arguments because you have no logical ones. This particular line of argument is offensive and does not merit a serious reply.
    That's what you call the truth?
  10. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    19 Feb '17 16:35
    Originally posted by Eladar
    That's what you call the truth?
    My statement is valid or fair comment. What you understand by "the truth" is something obscure in this context and your response is absurd.
  11. 19 Feb '17 16:39
    Originally posted by finnegan
    My statement is valid or fair comment. What you understand by "the truth" is something obscure in this context and your response is absurd.
    Absurd that certain groups of Muslims will actually carry out what they say they will do.
  12. Standard member vivify
    rain
    19 Feb '17 18:52 / 3 edits
    Originally posted by finnegan
    The Israelis will not make peace because they believe they can have what they want by force and can continue with their creeping strategy to create a Greater Israel.
    You know full well that Israel has fully withdrawn it's military presence from Gaza, only to have the Palestinians respond with rocket fire a few hours later. I'm sure you've already heard, countless times in your many debates, how Gaza violated cease-fires with with rockets. Israel has shown a willingness for peace. That doesn't excuse the fact that they're stealing land from Palestinians; but Israel has, multiple times, demonstrated wanting peace, only for that desire to get thrown back in it's face.

    Gaza is no more virtuous than Israel; they merely lack the might to do to Israel what it has done to them. This allows them to play the victim, even though they are the ones breaking cease-fires. If Gaza *could* achieve it's goals by force, they certainly would.

    Taking sides on this issue is a mistake you and the conservatives on the site make time and time again.

    There will be no peace until a mediator emerges willing to deploy sufficient authority - based on real power - to force the parties to settle. In the current environment only the USA has the power to mediate peace.

    This is a surprisingly bad idea, coming from you. For the U.S. to try and force peace in that region, it would mean it didn't learn it's lesson from Iraq. The U.S. would be guaranteed to kill countless civilians in order to maintain it's military presence. A people driven by ideology will not submit to tanks, unless the U.S. starts wiping out scores of people to make the point.

    Any nation that tries to "force" peace will between Israelis and Palestinians will not only be hated by both sides, by will invariably commit human rights violations in the process.
  13. 19 Feb '17 20:37 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by vivify to Finnegan
    You know full well that Israel has fully withdrawn it's military presence from Gaza, only to have the Palestinians respond with rocket fire a few hours later. I'm sure you've already heard, countless times in your many debates, how Gaza violated cease-fires with with rockets. Israel has shown a willingness for peace. That doesn't excuse the fac ...[text shortened]... t only be hated by both sides, by will invariably commit human rights violations in the process.
    Parroting pro-Israeli propaganda, Vivify ignores Israel's continuing illegal blockade of Gaza,
    which has been generally condemned (outside the USA) as extremely inhumane.

    http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/un-independent-panel-rules-israel-blockade-of-gaza-illegal-1.384267

    "UN Independent Panel Rules Israel Blockade of Gaza Illegal"
    ('Haaretz' is a major Israeli newspaper.)

    https://imeu.org/article/israels-blockade-of-gaza-is-it-legal

    "Israel’s Blockade of Gaza: Is it Legal?"

    "In June 2012, a group of 50 international aid agencies, including the World Health
    Organization and Oxfam, called on Israel to lift its siege and blockade of Gaza, stating:
    'For over five years in Gaza, more than 1.6 million people have been under blockade
    in violation of international law. More than half of these people are children. We the
    undersigned say with one voice: "end the blockade now.'"

    "Israeli officials have admitted that the siege is not motivated primarily by security
    concerns, but is part of a strategy of "economic warfare" against the people of Gaza."

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/2016-marks-ten-years-of-israeli-siege-illegal-blockade-of-gaza/5499129

    "2016 Marks Ten Years of Israeli Siege, Illegal Blockade of Gaza"

    "The Israeli authorities imposed severe restrictions on patients and their companions
    travelling through Erez. Human rights groups have recorded the arrest of several
    patients or their companions while using the crossing into the occupied Palestine.
    Attempts are made by the Israeli occupation intelligence agents to blackmail people
    into becoming informers in exchange for being allowed to cross.

    Palestinian ministry of health in Gaza has since been reporting chronic shortages of
    medicines and hospital disposables. “Shelves are empty due to the restrictions
    imposed by the Israelis on people and goods going in and out of the coastal enclave,”
    MOH spokesman says."

    "During the siege, the Israeli occupation has launched four major military offensives
    against the people of Gaza, in 2006, 2008/9, 2012 and 2014; the latter was the most
    destructive. It lasted for 51 days and whole areas of Gaza were flattened by Israeli
    bombs; tens of thousands of people were displaced."
  14. Standard member vivify
    rain
    19 Feb '17 21:08
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    Parroting pro-Israeli propaganda, Vivify ignores Israel's continuing illegal blockade of Gaza,
    which has been generally condemned (outside the USA) as extremely inhumane.
    Thread 171864

    Originally posted by vivify
    ...should Israel be banned from the Olympics for its human rights abuses?

    I think so.
  15. 19 Feb '17 21:12 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by vivify
    Thread 171864

    Originally posted by vivify
    [b] ...should Israel be banned from the Olympics for its human rights abuses?

    I think so.
    [/b]
    I did *not* claim that Vivify *never* has criticized Israel in any way.
    I wrote that Vivify parroted pro-Israeli propaganda in his post attacking Finnegan.

    For further reading:
    _The 51 Day War: Resistance and Ruin in Gaza_ by Max Blumenthal