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  1. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    01 Dec '18 18:32
    @shavixmir said
    Nazis?

    I’m pretty sure they were the most mixed up bunch of retards the world’s ever produced.

    Suggesting anything they ever claimed is anything other than madness is madness.

    I mean, even the things they were supposedly good at, when looked at with scrutiny, were complete rubbish.

    I’m pretty sure that Hitler was a Christian and I’m pretty sure Himmler wanted to ...[text shortened]... n the various power-houses wrestling for a pat on the back from Adolf and more power for themselves.
    Adolf was not a Christian. He despised Christianity.
  2. Standard membershavixmir
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    01 Dec '18 19:51
    @athousandyoung said
    Adolf was not a Christian. He despised Christianity.
    Well, you say this, yet in Mein Kampf he clearly describes himself as Christian.

    Now, obviously, him being a politician means he could well have been lying to win votes... but who am I to question the written word of a nazi?

    Well okay. I am pretty sure the man’s religion would have been based on anything that supported him and his views.
  3. Subscriberno1marauder
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    01 Dec '18 20:05
    @athousandyoung said
    Adolf was not a Christian. He despised Christianity.
    What do you make of the quotes on this page: https://www.nobeliefs.com/speeches.htm

    Examples:

    The National Socialist State professes its allegiance to positive Christianity.

    - Adolf Hitler, on 26 June 1934, to Catholic bishops to assure them that he would take action against the new pagan propaganda


    National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary it stands on the ground of a real Christianity.... For their interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of to-day, in our fight against a Bolshevist culture, against atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for a consciousness of a community in our national life... These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles! And I believe that if we should fail to follow these principles then we should to be able to point to our successes, for the result of our political battle is surely not unblest by God.

    -Adolf Hitler, in his speech at Koblenz, to the Germans of the Saar, 26 Aug. 1934

    etc. etc. etc.
  4. Zugzwang
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    01 Dec '18 20:292 edits
    Hitlers's religious beliefs (or lack thereof) are a matter of dispute among historians.

    The Heer (German Army) remained a 'Christian army', with Christian (both Protestant
    and Catholic) chaplains serving. Its official motto was 'Gott mit uns' (God is with us).

    Major Wilhelm Georg Bach was a Lutheran pastor and an exceptional officer.
    Rommel appointed him to defend Halfaya Pass, which he did with great tenacity.

    "Although his rank demanded respect, he was the friendliest, most relaxed German
    commander serving under Rommel. Bach was habitually addressed by his soldiers
    as “Vater” (“Father” ), and it was unclear whether it was a reference to his former
    profession or to his paternal nature."

    Wilhelm Georg Bach died of cancer as a POW in Canada.

    According to one German soldier's memoir, his division took action to celebrate
    Christmas (1942) in the battle of Stalingrad by ordering a special meal to be prepared
    for all front-line soldiers, regardless of rank. It would be the first hot meal that many
    of them had enjoyed for weeks. It consisted of noodle soup with lots of tinned beef.
    The memoir's author wrote that he was very afraid of being shot by a Soviet sniper
    as he (and another soldier) struggled to carry the soup (enough for many men) to
    the company that he was assigned to locate in Stalingrad. It took several hours.
    By that time, the soup was ice cold, though not yet frozen. The front-line soldiers
    started a fire, reheated the soup, and offered him and his partner equal shares.
  5. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    01 Dec '18 21:461 edit
    @no1marauder said
    What do you make of the quotes on this page: https://www.nobeliefs.com/speeches.htm

    Examples:

    The National Socialist State professes its allegiance to positive Christianity.

    - Adolf Hitler, on 26 June 1934, to Catholic bishops to assure them that he would take action against the new pagan propaganda


    National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it an ...[text shortened]...
    -Adolf Hitler, in his speech at Koblenz, to the Germans of the Saar, 26 Aug. 1934

    etc. etc. etc.
    Propaganda because he knew his population was Christian.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inside_the_Third_Reich

    Hitler, wrote Speer, viewed Christianity as the wrong religion for the "Germanic temperament":[54] Speer wrote that Hitler would say: "You see, it's been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn't we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?"


    Hitler had similar views as Gibbon - he felt Christianity led to weakness and the fall from glory. However he had to say whatever worked to get people to obey him.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Christianity

    Positive Christianity (German: Positives Christentum) was a movement within Nazi Germany which mixed ideas of racial purity and Nazi ideology with elements of Christianity. Hitler used the term in Article 24[1] of the 1920 Nazi Party Platform, stating: "the Party represents the standpoint of Positive Christianity". Non-denominational, the term could be variously interpreted. Positive Christianity allayed fears among Germany's Christian majority as expressed through their hostility towards the established churches of large sections of the Nazi movement.[2] In 1937, Hans Kerrl, the Nazi Minister for Church Affairs, explained that "Positive Christianity" was not "dependent upon the Apostle's Creed", nor was it dependent on "faith in Christ as the son of God", upon which Christianity relied, rather, it was represented by the Nazi Party: "The Führer is the herald of a new revelation", he said.[3] To accord with Nazi antisemitism, Positive Christianity advocates also sought to deny the Semitic origins of Christ and the Bible. In such elements Positive Christianity separated itself from Nicene Christianity and is considered apostate by all of the historical Trinitarian Christian churches, whether Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant.
  6. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    02 Dec '18 00:11
    @deepthought said
    Olaf Trygvasson tortured pagans to secure their conversion. Was that worth it?
    This is actually a really awesome story:

    Raud the Strong was a Norse Seiðr priest and seafaring warrior, who resisted conversion to Christianity in the late 10th century AD.

    Olaf Tryggvason was King of Norway from 995 to 1000 AD. He played an important part in the conversion of the Vikings to Christianity. Olaf traveled to the parts of Norway that had been under the rule of the King of Denmark. He demanded that the citizenry be baptized, and most reluctantly agreed. Those that did not were tortured or killed. Despite King Olaf’s persuasive efforts, many of the Vikings were reluctant to renounce their Gods and adopt Christianity. New and increasingly painful tortures and executions were devised by Olaf and his men. One of the most famous incidents of recalcitrance to Olaf’s attempts at coerced conversion to Christianity is that of Raud the Strong.

    Raud the Strong was a large landowner, a leader-priest of Seiðr (an Old Norse term for a type of sorcery or witchcraft that was practiced by the pre-Christian Norse), and a sea-farer. Raud was known for his beautiful longship, a boat larger than any of Olaf’s, with a dragon’s head carved into the bow. The ship was called “The Dragon” or “The Serpent.” Raud the Strong, who also had the reputation of being a wizard, was defeated by Olaf in a sea battle. He escaped on his vessel, using the technique of sailing against the wind, which was a sailing technique unusual in northern European waters at that time. Raud outran Olaf and escaped to his settlement in Gylling and Haering, a part of the Godey Isles.

    After the weather calmed, Olaf sailed under cover of darkness to Godey and seized Raud from his bed. Then the king told Raud that if he accepted Christian baptism, he could keep his lands and ship and the king would be his friend.

    But Raud refused, saying he would never believe in Christ, and mocked Olaf's religion and deity. Olaf became incensed and said Raud should die a horrible death. The king ordered him to be bound to a beam of wood, with his face pointed upward, and a round pin of wood put between his teeth to force his mouth open. The king then ordered a snake to be put into Raud’s mouth, but the snake would not go in. Olaf then ordered a drinking horn to be put into Raud’s mouth, and forced the serpent to go in by holding a red-hot iron at the opening of the horn. As a result, the snake crept into Raud’s mouth and down his throat, and gnawed its way out his side and Raud died.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raud_the_Strong

    I think that the proper answer, though, is a bit different than you would think...

    King Olaf had just fought a battle against a subversive vassal. He was a powerful guy that apparently had his own navy with vessels larger than his own.

    After being defeated, King Olaf offered to totally forgive him and welcome him to be a courtier if he would simply convert. Raud refused and thus, as would be expected, he was treated as a threat to the whole of the stability of Norway and then he was executed by the King.

    Considering the way that politics happened and the way that religion existed in that social setting, nothing about this is really counter to the logic of the society. Indeed, it affirms the internal logic of medieval Norway.

    But, what is funny, is that King Olaf becomes the bad guy when we appraise him from a context that would not really have existed. I mean, sure, he could have, say, locked up Raud and taken away all of his lands, but this came with a lot of risks and is hardly inspiring to anyone.It also does not provide a sense of vengeance for all of the men who likely died in the process of subduing Raud.

    Of course, all of this is still debatable, and it should be debated, but I think that our perspective on it is a bit silly.
  7. Seongnam, S. Korea
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    02 Dec '18 00:13
    It is worthy to note that the high command of the SS had practicing Norse pagans in it, and there were programs existing that dealt with the occult and dabbled in paganism. The whole castle Wewelsberg was used toward that end.

    This would have been unthinkable for any previous German military. Indeed, it would have been pretty unthinkable to have been happening at any point in Europe after the medieval ages.

    I think it is hard to say that the Nazis had a great relationship with Christianity because of that.
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    02 Dec '18 15:30
    @whodey instead of faith, how about adopting the philosophy of the Enlightenment and base our decisions on science, reason and humanism. I recommend Steven Pinker's book, "Enlightenment Now: The Case for Reason, Science, Humanism and Progress".
  9. Zugzwang
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    02 Dec '18 22:14
    @philokalia said
    It is worthy to note that the high command of the SS had practicing Norse pagans in it, and there were programs existing that dealt with the occult and dabbled in paganism. The whole castle Wewelsberg was used toward that end.

    This would have been unthinkable for any previous German military. Indeed, it would have been pretty unthinkable to have been happening at any p ...[text shortened]... I think it is hard to say that the Nazis had a great relationship with Christianity because of that.
    The Heer (Army) and the Waffen-SS had some ideological differences.
    The SS motto was 'Meine Ehre heißt Treue', not 'Gott Mit Uns'.
  10. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    04 Dec '18 01:13
    @philokalia said
    It is worthy to note that the high command of the SS had practicing Norse pagans in it, and there were programs existing that dealt with the occult and dabbled in paganism. The whole castle Wewelsberg was used toward that end.

    This would have been unthinkable for any previous German military. Indeed, it would have been pretty unthinkable to have been happening at any p ...[text shortened]... I think it is hard to say that the Nazis had a great relationship with Christianity because of that.
    Very strange...and fascinating!

    https://www.eyeofthepsychic.com/wewelsburg/

    the tower marked the veritable centre of the world, starting in the crypt, which was in origin but a cistern. This was redesigned as a circular vault, in which twelve seats were placed – references to King Arthur and the Twelve Knights of the Round Table? The SS was divided into twelve main departments (SS-Hauptämter), hence each seat might have been for each of these twelve leaders.
    In the centre of the ceiling, there is a swastika, the symbol par excellence of the Nazi party. The swastika symbolised the creative, active life force, but, of course, it would become seen as a symbol of mass killing. Though there is no round table, there is a circular depression in the centre of the room, which in its centre is believed to have held an eternal flame. Joachim Escher, an inmate, said how in the crypt, “we had to lower the floor, and it was made of rock. We used drills in places and sometimes crowbars, picks and pitching tools, and then it was all put on hand barrows and we had to get it outside, then it was tipped out, it was pretty hard work.”
    The vault, which some have labelled the “Himmler Crypt”, was, according to some claims, going to be the site where Himmler was going to be interred after his death. It is known that Himmler believed that he was the incarnation of Heinrich I, the founder and first king of the medieval German state, who was apparently the king to whom the vault was going to be dedicated. Equally, it was Himmler’s belief that Heinrich I protected Germany from invaders from the East. Others argue that when one of the leading SS officers died, his ashes were planned to be interred in the castle. There is speculation that the urns of dead SS leaders would have been placed on the pedestals in the vault, but there is no evidence that if these plans existed, they were ever executed. It is nevertheless known that the vault was meant to resemble the famed Mycenean domed tombs.
    The swastika in the crypt’s ceiling is physically linked with a sun wheel that is embedded in the centre of the marble floor of the Obergruppenführersaal above. This is a hall with twelve columns and twelve niches, which after the war and until 1986, was actually transformed into a church. The sun wheel is sometimes referred to as the “Black Sun” and originally, a golden disc was placed in the middle of the ornament. Allegedly, the room has similarities with the Mausoleum of Theodoric in Ravenna.
  11. Zugzwang
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    04 Dec '18 02:29
    @athousandyoung said
    Adolf was not a Christian. He despised Christianity.
    Some acquaintances report that Hitler said that the Catholic Church, despite his
    differences with it, was an essential force for stability in Europe or the world at large.
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    04 Dec '18 08:18
    @duchess64 said
    Some acquaintances report that Hitler said that the Catholic Church, despite his
    differences with it, was an essential force for stability in Europe or the world at large.
    He also kept to the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, until he didn't. That's Irrealpolitik for you.
  13. Standard memberDeepThought
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    04 Dec '18 16:55
    @philokalia said
    This is actually a really awesome story:

    [quote]Raud the Strong was a Norse Seiðr priest and seafaring warrior, who resisted conversion to Christianity in the late 10th century AD.

    Olaf Tryggvason was King of Norway from 995 to 1000 AD. He played an important part in the conversion of the Vikings to Christianity. Olaf traveled to the parts of Norway that had been un ...[text shortened]... is still debatable, and it should be debated, but I think that our perspective on it is a bit silly.
    The stuff about drinking horns sounds like poison somehow. I don't think you can escape the charge of the use of torture to propagate Christianity by invoking stability.

    Your attempt to defend Christianity against this charge by attempting to equate the ancient Germanic religion and the Nazi's deranged revivalism won't work. The ancient religion is basically forgotten, the ones who wrote about it were Christians with agendas; whatever the ancient religion was like, or the Nazis did, does not justify the use of torture by Trygvasson.
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    05 Dec '18 18:382 edits
    @phranny said
    @whodey instead of faith, how about adopting the philosophy of the Enlightenment and base our decisions on science, reason and humanism. I recommend Steven Pinker's book, "Enlightenment Now: The Case for Reason, Science, Humanism and Progress".
    You don't understand how the Statist thinks. Religion, as well as truth, is an obstacle to overcome if it impedes your cause. However, if it aid your cause you adopt it.

    Perhaps this is why Hitler secretly favored Islam over Christianity while ruling a Europe who had embraced a Christian influenced culture.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/book-review-ataturk-in-the-nazi-imagination-by-stefan-ihrig-and-islam-and-nazi-germanys-war-by-david-motadel-1421441724


    "You see, it's been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn't we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion [Islam] too would have been more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?"

    Adolf Hitler
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    05 Dec '18 18:401 edit
    Jesus driving out the money changers from the temple with a whip is perhaps the only part of the gospels Hitler embraced.

    "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. ...Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. ..."
    - Adolf Hitler, speech on April 12, 1922
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