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  1. Zugzwang
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    11 Sep '18 18:061 edit
    On 11 September 1973, the USA (through the CIA) strongly supported the
    overthrow of Chile's democratically elected President Allende, replacing
    him with the brutal right-wing client dictator General Pinochet.
    The USA embraced General Pinochet, who implemented the radical
    capitalist theories of Milton Freeman and the 'Chicago Boys'.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Chilean_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat

    "Before the coup, Chile had been hailed as a beacon of democracy and
    political stability for decades; whilst the rest of South America had been
    plagued by military juntas and Caudillismo. The collapse of Chilean
    democracy ended a streak of democratic governments in Chile, which had
    held democratic elections since 1932.[15] Historian Peter Winn characterised
    the 1973 coup as one of the most violent events in the history of Chile."

    http://www.sbs.com.au/theother911/

    "The Other 9/11"

    On 11 September 2001, some Chileans grimly 'celebrated' the news of
    what happened in the USA not because they approved of killing civilians
    but because they perceived it as a belated revenge for the USA had done.
  2. Subscribersonhouse
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    12 Sep '18 00:49
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    On 11 September 1973, the USA (through the CIA) strongly supported the
    overthrow of Chile's democratically elected President Allende, replacing
    him with the brutal right-wing client dictator General Pinochet.
    The USA embraced General Pinochet, who implemented the radical
    capitalist theories of Milton Freeman and the 'Chicago Boys'.

    https://en.wikip ...[text shortened]... d of killing civilians
    but because they perceived it as a belated revenge for the USA had done.
    And I can imagine you dancing in the streets after OUR 9-11. You are obsessed with the brutalities of the US while ignoring the massive murders by the Chinese and Soviets and the Turks against the Armenians. All of that means nothing to you because the US is OBVIOUSLY THE most evil empire since Rome.
  3. Zugzwang
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    12 Sep '18 01:271 edit
    Originally posted by @sonhouse
    And I can imagine you dancing in the streets after OUR 9-11. You are obsessed with the brutalities of the US while ignoring the massive murders by the Chinese and Soviets and the Turks against the Armenians. All of that means nothing to you because the US is OBVIOUSLY THE most evil empire since Rome.
    The jingoistic American troll Sonhouse spews another hateful historically ignorant rant.
    Sonhouse really has despicable Nazi-like (not exactly Nazi) attitudes toward US imperialism.

    In fact, as I have written before, one of my relatives was working very near the World
    Trade Center on 11 September 2001. Given the lack of communication, some in my
    family had some anxious hours while waiting for him to confirm that he had survived.

    Later in 2001, Tariq Ali spoke with a New York City taxi driver, a refugee from Central America.
    He said that the USA was responsible for killing tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people in his homeland.
    So, when he watched the Twin Towers fall, he felt that the hijackers had somewhat avenged his people.
    He said that he would not have cared if he had died as long as he had lived to see the USA humbled.

    That's not exactly how I feel.
    1) I feel sorry for the innocent victims of 11 September 2001.
    2) I respect the courage of the hijackers, who sacrificed their lives for what they believed, even though I don't.
    3) I can feel sorry for individual Americans, but not for the United States per se.
    As Chalmers Johnson put it, what happened was 'blowback' for US imperialism.
    The events of 11 September 2001 must be understood within their historical context, not in isolation.
  4. Joined
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    12 Sep '18 06:42
    Originally posted by @sonhouse
    And I can imagine you dancing in the streets after OUR 9-11. You are obsessed with the brutalities of the US while ignoring the massive murders by the Chinese and Soviets and the Turks against the Armenians. All of that means nothing to you because the US is OBVIOUSLY THE most evil empire since Rome.
    Do you deny the USA is an empire? You need to seriously ask yourself why our government betrays it's own stated goals.

    https://theantimedia.com/al-qaeda-in-syria/
  5. Behind the scenes
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    12 Sep '18 13:37
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    The jingoistic American troll Sonhouse spews another hateful historically ignorant rant.
    Sonhouse really has despicable Nazi-like (not exactly Nazi) attitudes toward US imperialism.

    In fact, as I have written before, one of my relatives was working very near the World
    Trade Center on 11 September 2001. Given the lack of communication, some in my
    ...[text shortened]... vents of 11 September 2001 must be understood within their historical context, not in isolation.
    1) I feel sorry for the innocent victims of 11 September 2001.





    Oh Really? I think the jury is still out on that one.
  6. Zugzwang
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    12 Sep '18 17:422 edits
    Originally posted by @metal-brain to Sonhouse
    Do you deny the USA is an empire? You need to seriously ask yourself why our government betrays it's own stated goals.

    https://theantimedia.com/al-qaeda-in-syria/
    Evidently, the jingoistic Sonhouse's a fanatical supporter of US imperialism.
    Sonhouse routinely attempts to excuse (when not denying) US war crimes by claiming
    that other countries have committed war crimes too.

    Given Sonhouse's twisted 'logic', the USA should have the 'right' to commit genocide
    because the Nazis did so. Perhaps the extremely pro-Israeli Sonhouse (his preferred
    'peace plan' consists of transferring the Palestinians from the West Bank to Jordan)
    will bring up the Nazis in attempting to justify a future Israeli genocide of the Palestinians.

    In contrast to Sonhouse, MetalBrain apparently has a moral conscience toward US imperialism.
  7. Zugzwang
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    12 Sep '18 18:121 edit
    Originally posted by @metal-brain to Sonhouse
    Do you deny the USA is an empire? You need to seriously ask yourself why our government betrays it's own stated goals.

    https://theantimedia.com/al-qaeda-in-syria/
    To his credit (whatever his motives), MetalBrain's one of the few Americans here who dares to criticize US imperialism.
    This is in contrast to the jingoistic Sonhouse's relentless US flag-waving.

    What I write next is based upon Sonhouse's behavior in another ongoing thread.
    I infer that the reason why Sonhouse has NOT criticized PresidentTrump's attack on
    the International Criminal Court is because Sonhouse (privately) agrees with President Trump.
    Both Donald Trump and Sonhouse are extremely jingoistic Americans.

    President Trump has attacked the ICC because he does want it ever to try any Americans for war crimes.
    Sonhouse apparently wants the same thing. Sonhouse always has attempted to excuse
    US war crimes (including rape, murder, genocide) by claiming that other countries have
    done the same, so Americans should be entitled to do so without any criticism or punishment.
    Sonhouse apparently wants all Americans to be given immunity from the ICC.

    Now Sonhouse may prefer to lie and deny this. But let's consider these facts:
    1) Sonhouse has fanatically attacked PresidentTrump on ALMOST EVERY possible issue.
    2) Sonhouse prefers NOT to criticize President Trump at all when he attacks the ICC.
    3) Therefore, Sonhouse apparently agrees with and supports President Trump's attack on the ICC.

    In my view, Sonhouse's an absolutely morally reprehensible apologist (at best) for US war crimes.
  8. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    12 Sep '18 18:53
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    The jingoistic American troll Sonhouse spews another hateful historically ignorant rant.
    Sonhouse really has despicable Nazi-like (not exactly Nazi) attitudes toward US imperialism.

    In fact, as I have written before, one of my relatives was working very near the World
    Trade Center on 11 September 2001. Given the lack of communication, some in my
    ...[text shortened]... vents of 11 September 2001 must be understood within their historical context, not in isolation.
    "I respect the courage of the hijackers, who sacrificed their lives for what they believed, even though I don't."


    Personally, I have zero respect for terrorists (in any facet) or for anybody who does. Had you said you 'acknowledged' the courage of the hijackers I may have shuddered a little less in my seat, but to say you 'respect' their courage is actually rather disturbing and only goes to negate your first claim that you 'feel sorry for the innocent victims of 11 September 2001.'
  9. Subscribersonhouse
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    12 Sep '18 18:551 edit
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    To his credit (whatever his motives), MetalBrain's one of the few Americans here who dares to criticize US imperialism.
    This is in contrast to the jingoistic Sonhouse's relentless US flag-waving.

    What I write next is based upon Sonhouse's behavior in another ongoing thread.
    I infer that the reason why Sonhouse has NOT criticized PresidentTrump's att ...[text shortened]... n my view, Sonhouse's an absolutely morally reprehensible apologist (at best) for US war crimes.
    Oh yeah, me, an avowed enemy of Trump is going to agree with any of his sick policies.
    Like throwing children in jail, like saying the US response to the hurricane in Puerto Rico was an 'unsung success'. Like pushing through Kavanaugh as SCOTUS for the express purpose from T's POV of giving T a get out of jail card unless the senate grows some balls and perform their duty to check the abuses of the present POTUS.

    I never condoned US imperialism and now see the end of the US as a world power, which will take decades to complete and I also said something worse will take its place.

    You are the one with hatred in your eyes. I also mentioned I do not agree with the policies of Israel but I guess not saying I am ready to go to Gaza and take up arms must mean I am a rabid supporter of Likud.

    I never said forcing Palestinians into Jordan would solve the problem. I SAID Jordan SHOULD at least offer to give them land which they will never do and there will never be a Jordan solution. I was suggesting IF Jordan granted them land and IF the Palestinians moved there, the problem would be solved.

    I never suggested that as a forced solution. That is YOU putting words in MY mouth.

    So again, why do you NEVER rail against the 60 MILLION murdered by the Chinese government or 30+ million murdered by the Soviets? Are you claiming the US murdered that many and should be castigated therefore?
    I also never condoned any of the imperialist actions of the US, like the Vietnam war and all the horrific atrocities committed there by the US military.

    Don't put words into my mouth. I would ask you what country you served as an analyst but I am also sure you would just blow me off, tell me to mind my own business or some other put off. I assume you are so paranoid about your own life you would rather die than actually give out any data on your own life except that which you said put you so far above the rest of humanity in terms of intelligence. We get that. We get you are intelligent.
    We also get that using a constant stream of pejoratives negates the value of your critiques and the fact you will never get it and will therefore keep up with the long list of pejoratives.
    How many times have I called YOU any of those names? You use those lists so freely you forget you change nobodies POV whereas if you were actually civil and just pointed out the errors of other folks they would be more inclined to listen and accept your critiques. You yourself however, NEVER accept critiques of your own posts, since YOU are always right and everyone else is always wrong. That is a bit of hyperbole and you know it but you also know full well just what I mean.
  10. Zugzwang
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    12 Sep '18 19:022 edits
    Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
    "I respect the courage of the hijackers, who sacrificed their lives for what they believed, even though I don't."

    Personally, I have zero respect for terrorists (in any facet) or for anybody who does. Had you said you 'acknowledged' the courage of the hijackers I may have shuddered a little less in my seat, but to say you 'respect' their courag to negate your first claim that you 'feel sorry for the innocent victims of 11 September 2001.'
    The sanctimonious Ghost of a Duke shows ignorance of history and context.

    "Personally, I have zero respect for terrorists (in any facet) or for anybody who does."
    --Ghost of a Duke

    One man's 'terrorist' is another man's 'freedom fighter'.
    Nelson Mandela (a convict) was condemned as a 'terrorist' by right-wing American and
    British politicians (who favored closer relations with apartheid South Africa).
    Does Ghost of a Duke have 'zero respect' for Nelson Mandela?

    Does Ghost of a Duke have 'zero respect' for all the Irish 'terrorists' who fought against the UK?
    (Let Ghost of a Duke get into an argument with No1Marauder about that.)

    Does Ghost of a Duke have 'zero respect' for Jewish 'terrorists' (who became Prime Ministers
    of Israel) such as Menachem Begin (whose group blew up the King David Hotel) or
    Yitzhak Shamir (whose group was a pioneer of the vehicle bomb)? Both Begin and
    Shamir fought hard against the British and loathed the British for the rest of their lives.

    Ghost of a Duke may be ignorant of this famous Chinese saying.
    "The courage of your enemy honours you."
    --Sun Tzu

    After 11 September 2001, there was hysterical American condemnation of the 'cowardly' hijackers,
    in contrast, I suppose, to the 'heroic' American pilots who insist on dropping bombs from
    high altitude (less accuracy, more civilian casualties) because they are afraid of exposing
    their aircraft even to slightly more risk of being shot down.

    I respect the courage of the hijackers of 11 September 2001 as I respect the courage of
    the Japanese kamikaze pilots or of the Irish nationalist 'terrorists' who died on hunger strike.

    I already have written that I respect the courage of John McCain, who fought for the USA
    in a war that I (and many other people regard as deeply wrong.
  11. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    12 Sep '18 19:12
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    "Personally, I have zero respect for terrorists (in any facet) or for anybody who does."
    --Ghost of a Duke

    One man's 'terrorist' is another man's 'freedom fighter'.
    Nelson Mandela (a convict) was condemned as a 'terrorist' by right-wing American and
    British politicians (who favored closer relations with apartheid South Africa).
    Does Ghost of a Du ...[text shortened]... and
    Shamir fought hard against the British and loathed the British for the rest of their lives.
    I have zero respect for terrorists (of any nationality) who kill innocent victims. Indeed, for you to use 'respect' in such a context says a great deal about who you are as a person and how fundamentally broken you are.
  12. Zugzwang
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    12 Sep '18 19:152 edits
    Originally posted by @sonhouse
    Oh yeah, me, an avowed enemy of Trump is going to agree with any of his sick policies.
    Like throwing children in jail, like saying the US response to the hurricane in Puerto Rico was an 'unsung success'. Like pushing through Kavanaugh as SCOTUS for the express purpose from T's POV of giving T a get out of jail card unless the senate grows some balls and p ...[text shortened]... wrong. That is a bit of hyperbole and you know it but you also know full well just what I mean.
    The troll Sonhouse spew another extremely dishonest rant.

    I simply have pointed out the fact that, after having ample opportunity to do so, Sonhouse
    refused to criticize President Trump at all when he attacked the International Criminal Court.
    Given Sonhouse's obsession with attacking President Trump ALMOST all the time,
    Sonhouse's lack of criticism there seemed most revealing of his real opinions.

    Here's the thread:
    https://www.redhotpawn.com/forum/debates/trump-attack-on-icc-is-the-unacceptable-face-of-us-exceptionalism.178349

    Note that Sonhouse's only posts SO FAR have been far off-topic ones about music,
    no criticism at all of President Trump.

    The logical inference is that Sonhouse has avoided criticizing President Trump because
    he (privately) agrees with his attacking the ICC in order to shield Americans from being
    held accountable under international law.

    In fact, Sonhouse has advocated the 'Jordan option', a favorite of Israel's hard right-wing,
    as his preferred 'peace plan'. Sonhouse's extremely disingenuous 'fig leaf' is that the
    Palestinians in the West Bank supposedly would all 'voluntarily' leave their homes and
    lands behind (to be taken over by Jewish settlers) to start over again (at the bottom)
    as refugees in a foreign country, Jordan. I expect that Sonhouse's supposed past
    Palestinian 'friends' would reject him if they knew now that's what Sonhouse really
    wants to happen to them.

    As far as I know, no one (not even Quackquack) in this forum has advocated a more
    extreme right-wing Israeli and anti-Palestinian 'peace plan' than the troll Sonhouse.
    To make it worse, at least Quackquack does not pretend to be a 'friend' of the Palestinians,
    while Sonhouse does. So who's worse? The white American who kills 'Indians' to grab
    their land or the white American who pretends to be the 'Indians' 'friend' while zealously
    supporting policies to deprive the 'Indians' of their land?

    Why did not Sonhouse likewise tell black South Africans, "If you object to apartheid,
    then you are free to leave South Africa for any of many black-ruled countries"?
  13. Subscribersonhouse
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    12 Sep '18 19:15
    Originally posted by @metal-brain
    Do you deny the USA is an empire? You need to seriously ask yourself why our government betrays it's own stated goals.

    https://theantimedia.com/al-qaeda-in-syria/
    Of course the US is an empire, it is a world power. And like all world powers they abuse that power. What else is new. EVERY world power in the past has done likewise so if you are going to heap hatred on the US for that then don't forget to heap the same hatred on all the OTHER ex world powers that did the same or worse. Like the Dutch when they had their crack at world powerness, started the bit with slave trade and not caring a damn about the well being of the slaves they stowed down below like so many fish. Or the abuses of the British when THEY were a world power.

    All anyone can say is how horrible the US is but not a word about the 60 MILLION of their own citizens MURDERED by the Chinese in there drive to take over China completely or the 30 million or more murdered by the Soviets in THEIR power drive.

    So tell us again why nobody rails against that but ONLY goes after the US and BTW I am not a 'jingoistic flag waving' idiot like D64 likes to project.
  14. Zugzwang
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    12 Sep '18 19:362 edits
    Originally posted by @sonhouse
    Of course the US is an empire, it is a world power. And like all world powers they abuse that power. What else is new. EVERY world power in the past has done likewise so if you are going to heap hatred on the US for that then don't forget to heap the same hatred on all the OTHER ex world powers that did the same or worse. Like the Dutch when they had their ...[text shortened]... Y goes after the US and BTW I am not a 'jingoistic flag waving' idiot like D64 likes to project.
    The jingoistic troll Sonhouse shows his abysmal ignorance of history, in desperately
    attempting to justify US imperialism, which he apparently believes must be above criticism.

    Of course, the USA has not been the world's only imperialist power in history.
    But the USA is the world's preeminent imperialist power TODAY.
    I don't spend much time now denouncing the Roman Empire, for instance, because
    Roman imperialism long ago ceased to be relevant to people's lives today.

    Of course, Sonhouse routinely loves to exaggerate, if not fabricate, the alleged crimes
    of non-US imperialist powers while downplaying, if not denying, the crimes of US imperialism.

    _Rogue State: A Guide to the World's Only Superpower_ by William Blum
    is an eloquent critique of US imperialism (which Sonhouse presumably would reject).

    "Bravo! A vivid, well-aimed critique of the evils of US global interventionism, a superb
    antidote to officialdom’s lies and propaganda."
    --Michael Parenti

    Contrary to what Sonhouse apparently wants, the USA does not get a free pass to
    commit future genocide because the Nazis attempted to do so.

    Does Sonhouse believe that his many 'patriotic' fellow Americans who raped, tortured, and
    murdered several hundred Vietnamese (nearly all women or children) in My Lai should
    have been put on trial by an international court rather than by (only a few Americans
    ever were) a US military court determined to protect the US military's image as much as possible?
    Would not Sonhouse enjoy sharing a beer with Americans who participated in the My Lai Massacre?

    If Sonhouse had been born German, then he presumably would have become as morally
    reprehensible an apologist for Nazi crimes as he is for the crimes of US imperialism.
  15. Subscribersonhouse
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    12 Sep '18 19:37
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    The troll Sonhouse spew another extremely dishonest rant.

    I simply have pointed out the fact that, after having ample opportunity to do so, Sonhouse
    refused to criticize President Trump at all when he attacked the International Criminal Court.
    Given Sonhouse's obsession with attacking President Trump ALMOST all the time,
    Sonhouse's lack of criticism ...[text shortened]... alism.178349

    Note that Sonhouse's only posts SO FAR have been far off-topic ones about music.
    I rail against EVERYTHING Trump does including treating our real allies as enemies and the economic courts he hates, thinking we always lose trade court cases but Bob Woodward just pointed out we WIN almost 90% of those cases. Trump is not fit to be county dog catcher much less POTUS. His treatment of immigrants shows that if nothing else. He wants to be king Donald and that is a fact. He doesn't listen to experts on ANYTHING, like his railing against NATO where he says we are footing the bill and those terrible countries are not paying their fair share, completely ignoring what NATO is all about in the first place, where his top general said we are doing this to prevent WW3. He did not even understand that and just continued to rail against NATO. You can take it to the bank I don't like anything he says about any international crime commission.
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