Please turn on javascript in your browser to play chess.
Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. 10 Mar '17 10:59 / 2 edits
    https://www.yahoo.com/news/searching-for-trump-condemnation-in-pope-francis-words-224119366.html

    Pope Francis warned against the rising tide of populism in an interview with German paper Die Zeit this week, reigniting an ongoing search for subliminal criticism of President Trump in the pope’s words.

    “Pope Francis issues veiled warning about Donald Trump,” proclaimed the headline on British news site the Independent about the interview, though Francis had not mentioned Trump.

    His statement, however, that “populism is evil and ends badly as the past century showed,” marks at least the second time in recent months that the pope has warned against the dangers of growing populist movements in the U.S. as well as Europe. His latest words echo similar pontifications made during an interview with Spanish-language paper El Pais on the day of Trump’s inauguration.

    In that case, Francis cited Nazi Germany as the “most obvious example of populism in the European sense of the word,” pointing to the fact that “Hitler didn’t steal power, his people voted for him” as proof that “in times of crisis we lack judgment.” He further urged people to resist the tendency to “look for a savior who gives us back our identity and [lets] us defend ourselves with walls, barbed-wire, whatever, from other people who may rob us of our identity.”

    In his Inauguration Day interview with El Pais, the pope once again refrained from commenting on the new president directly, choosing instead to wait and “see how he acts, what he does” before forming an opinion. But his general warning against politicians who emphasize the need for strong border enforcement and other travel restrictions falls in line with other comments the pope has made about arguably Trumpian policies before and after the brash real estate mogul entered the White House.

    In a weekly address at the Vatican early last month, the pope reportedly issued an appeal “to not raise walls but bridges.” Though his comments were relatively generic on their own, Francis went on to insist, “A Christian can never say: ‘I’ll make you pay for that.’” Many interpreted the statement as a veiled critique of Trump’s pledge to not only build a wall along the southern border of the U.S. but also make Mexico pay for it.

    In February of last year, the pope offered a more direct assessment of Trump’s core campaign promise following a trip to Cuba and Mexico, which included a noteworthy stop in Juarez, a Mexican city near the U.S. border.

    “A person who thinks only about building walls, wherever they may be, and not building bridges, is not Christian,” Francis told reporters when asked about then-candidate Trump.

    At the time, Trump fired back at Francis, calling the comments “disgraceful.” In a lengthy statement, Trump said in part, “If and when the Vatican is attacked by ISIS, which as everyone knows is ISIS’s ultimate trophy, I can promise you that the Pope would have only wished and prayed that Donald Trump would have been President because this would not have happened. ISIS would have been eradicated unlike what is happening now with our all talk, no action politicians.”

    Both sides soon backed down, insisting that the pope’s initial words had been misinterpreted as an attack on Trump.

    Pope Francis celebrates Ash Wednesday Mass at Santa Sabina church in Rome on March 1. (Photo: Vatican Pool/Getty Images)
    More
    Not entirely unlike the president himself, Francis has developed a penchant for expressing his views on Twitter. A number of observers read his recent posts about embracing migrants and foreigners as a subtle rejection of the restrictive immigration policies of both Trump and right-wing parties in Europe.

    Despite the fact that Francis has yet to make an explicit statement regarding his views on the U.S. president, experts are also eager to connect the dots.

    In a piece for the New Yorker earlier last month, former Catholic priest-turned-novelist James Carroll deemed Francis “the anti-Trump,” arguing that “Pope Francis is, at this point, the world’s staunchest defender of migrants, and of Muslim migrants.”

    British journalist and papal biographer Austen Ivereigh offered a similar analysis at the New York Times on March 4, pointing to the pope’s expressed support for Muslim immigrants and refugees as the biggest conflict between “the world’s two most compelling populists.”

    Without having technically derided the president by name, Ivereigh argued, “Pope Francis has become the flag-bearer of the global anti-Trump resistance.”
  2. 10 Mar '17 11:01 / 3 edits
    This is the part of the interview that is the most intriguing to me.

    In that case, Francis cited Nazi Germany as the “most obvious example of populism in the European sense of the word,” pointing to the fact that “Hitler didn’t steal power, his people voted for him” as proof that “in times of crisis we lack judgment.” He further urged people to resist the tendency to “look for a savior who gives us back our identity and [lets] us defend ourselves with walls, barbed-wire, whatever, from other people who may rob us of our identity.”


    IF crisis, which is always around the corner, leads to a lack of judgment, Is Democracy evil? Can it only lead to despotism?

    Also, how is the election of Obama any different with markets around the world in free fall? Was that not a "credit crisis"? Did not one of his top aids say, "Never let a good crisis go to waste?"

    And lastly, after 8 years of Obama, is the Pope agreeing that the US is in crisis?
  3. Standard member shavixmir
    Guppy poo
    10 Mar '17 11:20
    I think the pope is just saying: "Don't vote for people like Hitler."

    Quite a simple and realistic message.
  4. 10 Mar '17 11:28
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    I think the pope is just saying: "Don't vote for people like Hitler."

    Quite a simple and realistic message.
    I normally am opposed to the papacy but those are wise words. The latest polls show marine le pen might be losing ground.
  5. Standard member shavixmir
    Guppy poo
    10 Mar '17 12:31
    Originally posted by Ashiitaka
    I normally am opposed to the papacy but those are wise words. The latest polls show marine le pen might be losing ground.
    You oppose the papacy?
    You mean you don't think the Catholic church should have a pope?
  6. 10 Mar '17 12:35
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    You oppose the papacy?
    You mean you don't think the Catholic church should have a pope?
    I don't believe the pope is elected by god. I object to the crimes committed by the papacy over the years.
  7. 10 Mar '17 12:36 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Ashiitaka
    I don't believe the pope is elected by god. I object to the crimes committed by the papacy over the years.
    You mean like the Catholic church remaining silent about the Holocaust to save their own skins?

    Yet they lecture us about electing Hitler?
  8. 10 Mar '17 12:38 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Ashiitaka
    I normally am opposed to the papacy but those are wise words. The latest polls show marine le pen might be losing ground.
    Left wingers love the Pope. He sits around giving sermons about global warming and the virtues of big government social programs.

    You know, the kind of big social programs Hitler gave his people during WW2 as well as all the environmental causes the Nazi regime was known for.
  9. 10 Mar '17 12:44 / 2 edits
    It seems to me that there really is never a time when society is not in crisis. The only question becomes how dire crisis is thought to be.

    Crisis is the bread and butter of politicians. They want to save the environment, they want to finally achieve social justice, or prevent people from dying in the streets from a lack of health care, etc., etc., etc.

    Without such crisis, these dregs of society would have no future.


    Every collectivist revolution rides in on a Trojan horse of 'emergency'. It was the tactic of Lenin, Hitler, and Mussolini. In the collectivist sweep over a dozen minor countries of Europe, it was the cry of men striving to get on horseback. And 'emergency' became the justification of the subsequent steps. This technique of creating emergency is the greatest achievement that demagoguery attains.

    Herbert Hoover
  10. 10 Mar '17 12:59
    Obama seemed to claim that he was a bigger populist than Trump.

    “I suppose that makes me a populist. Somebody else who has never shown any regard for workers, has never fought on behalf of social justice issues, or making sure that poor kids are getting a decent shot at life or have health care. In fact, have worked against equal opportunity for workers and ordinary people. They don’t suddenly become a populist because they say something controversial in order to win votes,” Obama said.
  11. 10 Mar '17 14:45 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by whodey
    You mean like the Catholic church remaining silent about the Holocaust to save their own skins?

    Yet they lecture us about electing Hitler?
    I'm aware of this. I can't bring myself to overlook the crimes the catholic church has committed over the millennia.
  12. 10 Mar '17 14:53 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Ashiitaka
    I'm aware of this. I can't bring myself to overlook the crimes the catholic church has committed over the millennia.
    Just listen to the Popes sermons on the evils of building walls.

    It'll be alright.
  13. 10 Mar '17 20:40
    Like all non-scumbags, the pope opposes Trump. Seems like a rather uncontroversial stance to me. What did you want to discuss here, whodey?
  14. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    11 Mar '17 14:55
    Originally posted by whodey
    It seems to me that there really is never a time when society is not in crisis. The only question becomes how dire crisis is thought to be.

    Crisis is the bread and butter of politicians. They want to save the environment, they want to finally achieve social justice, or prevent people from dying in the streets from a lack of health care, etc., etc., etc. ...[text shortened]... e of creating emergency is the greatest achievement that demagoguery attains.

    Herbert Hoover
    That a rather laughable quote from Herbert Hoover.

    Check a history book if you don't know why.