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  1. 28 Aug '10 17:24
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-11101842
    Brazil's government has given the formal go-ahead for the building on a tributary of the Amazon of the world's third biggest hydroelectric dam.
    "After several failed legal challenges, President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva signed the contract for the Belo Monte dam with the Norte Energia consortium.

    Critics say the project will damage the local ecosystem and make homeless 50,000 mainly indigenous people.

    But the government says it is crucial for development and will create jobs.

    Bidding for the project had to be halted three times before a final court appeal by the government allowed Norte Energia, led by the state-owned Companhia Hidro Eletrica do Sao Francisco, to be awarded the contract."


    "...With Brazil's economy continuing to show signs of growth, ministers say hydro-electric plants are a vital way to ensure power supplies over the next decade - and at least 70 dams are said to be planned for the Amazon region.

    Critics say the Belo Monte plant will be hugely inefficient, generating less than 10% of its capacity during the three to four months of the year when water levels are low."


    Is economic development a sufficient excuse for dislocating these tribes from their lands? Is there any way of reconciling national interests with local ones?
  2. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    Poor Filipov :,(
    28 Aug '10 23:03
    Originally posted by generalissimo
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-11101842
    [b]Brazil's government has given the formal go-ahead for the building on a tributary of the Amazon of the world's third biggest hydroelectric dam.

    [i]"After several failed legal challenges, President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva signed the contract for the Belo Monte dam with the Norte Energia c ...[text shortened]... bes from their lands? Is there any way of reconciling national interests with local ones?[/b]
    Cut a deal with the local indigenous peoples somehow. It's their land.
  3. Donation rwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    28 Aug '10 23:24 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by generalissimo
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-11101842
    Brazil's government has given the formal go-ahead for the building on a tributary of the Amazon of the world's third biggest hydroelectric dam.
    "After several failed legal challenges, President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva signed the contract for the Belo Monte dam with the Norte Energia c bes from their lands? Is there any way of reconciling national interests with local ones?
    A few dams ain't going to cure what ails Brazil. Whether or not the Amazon is dammed, the Brazilians are damned. An economy which requires perpetual growth is unsustainable and is doomed to eventual collapse. The Brazilians would do well to take a few life lessons from the indigenous peoples and stop trying to drown them.
  4. 29 Aug '10 02:59
    Originally posted by generalissimo
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-11101842
    [b]Brazil's government has given the formal go-ahead for the building on a tributary of the Amazon of the world's third biggest hydroelectric dam.

    [i]"After several failed legal challenges, President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva signed the contract for the Belo Monte dam with the Norte Energia c ...[text shortened]... bes from their lands? Is there any way of reconciling national interests with local ones?[/b]
    is the McDonald's franchise still available for that area?
  5. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    29 Aug '10 03:17
    Originally posted by generalissimo
    Is there any way of reconciling national interests with local ones?
    The term "national interests" is an indistinct subjective term, referring to competing agendas and objectives that are all rather in-the-eye-of-the-beholder-ish. The term "international community" is similar in this regard.
  6. 29 Aug '10 13:00
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Cut a deal with the local indigenous peoples somehow. It's their land.
    Not any more it isn't.
  7. 29 Aug '10 13:03
    Originally posted by rwingett
    An economy which requires perpetual growth is unsustainable and is doomed to eventual collapse.
    And who says that any economy "requires perpetual growth"?
    Who says that Brazils economy does?
    What does building hydroelectric dams have to do with it?
    Would you say the same if it was a coal powered power station in the US?
    Are you against all economic expansion?
  8. Donation rwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    29 Aug '10 13:19
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    And who says that any economy "requires perpetual growth"?
    Who says that Brazils economy does?
    What does building hydroelectric dams have to do with it?
    Would you say the same if it was a coal powered power station in the US?
    Are you against all economic expansion?
    My critique transcends mere economic expansion. It is a criticism of the whole of western civilization.
  9. 29 Aug '10 13:47
    If the project is technically sound (unlike some critics appear to claim) then I have no problem with it as long as the people who are displaced are properly compensated.
  10. Donation rwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    29 Aug '10 13:53
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    If the project is technically sound (unlike some critics appear to claim) then I have no problem with it as long as the people who are displaced are properly compensated.
    Destroying indigenous peoples lifestyle and forcing them into a western economy as wage slaves. What, exactly, is proper 'compensation' for such a process?
  11. 29 Aug '10 14:01
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Destroying indigenous peoples lifestyle and forcing them into a western economy as wage slaves. What, exactly, is proper 'compensation' for such a process?
    Some money and an alternative method to make a living.
  12. Donation rwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    29 Aug '10 14:05
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Some money and an alternative method to make a living.
    There is an example of "victor's justice" for you.
  13. Donation rwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    29 Aug '10 14:44 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Some money and an alternative method to make a living.
    So according to your 'logic', the European Settlers were justified in decimating the American Indian population, destroying their culture, and taking their land as long as they "properly" compensate them by letting them operate a few casinos.

    That alternative method of making a living has worked out just great for them.
  14. 29 Aug '10 16:28
    Originally posted by rwingett
    A few dams ain't going to cure what ails Brazil. Whether or not the Amazon is dammed, the Brazilians are damned. An economy which requires perpetual growth is unsustainable and is doomed to eventual collapse. The Brazilians would do well to take a few life lessons from the indigenous peoples and stop trying to drown them.
    What exactly is it that ails brazil? I haven't seen any negative reviews of the economy so far, how have you arrived at such conclusion?
    I believe its too dramatic to state the construction of the dam equates to the damnation of the amazon, the dislocation of a few tribes ,though very unfortunate, isn't the end of the world.
    What lessons do you think should be learned from these tribes? a return to hunting-gathering lifestyle as opposed to a more industrialized one?
  15. 29 Aug '10 16:51
    Originally posted by FMF
    The term "national interests" is an indistinct subjective term, referring to competing agendas and objectives that are all rather in-the-eye-of-the-beholder-ish. The term "international community" is similar in this regard.
    I don't see how that is the case, the conflict of interests here is clearly between the govt-encouraged economic development and the rights of these tribes to reside in their ancestral lands. the latter is clearly more parochial in terms of repercussions.