Please turn on javascript in your browser to play chess.
Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. 15 May '13 22:37
    In 2008 Uwe and Hannelore Romeike and their children emigrated from
    Germany to the United States. The Romeikes claimed that they had been
    unfairly persecuted in Germany because it's illegal there for them to educate
    their children as they prefer at home. (School attendance is compulsory in
    Germany.) The Romeikes' claim for asylum was initially granted by a judge,
    but then the Board of Immigration Appeals overturned it. The Romeikes
    appealed to the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals, which unanimously rejected
    their appeal on 14 May 2013.

    Should the Romeike family be granted asylum in the United States?
    Were the Romeikes (conservative Christians) the victims of political or
    religious persecution because Germany disallows home-schooling children?
    The Romeikes have drawn much support from conservative Christians in
    the USA. Would they have drawn as much support if they were a Muslim
    family who wished to give their children a pious Muslim education at home?
    Of course not, in that case I suspect that most Americans would have
    considered it good and proper that children from a Muslim family should be
    exposed to a thoroughly secular education in a German state school.

    According to the Sixth Circuit Court, the issue was not whether or not
    Germany's compulsory school attendance law would be acceptable under
    the US Constitution. (Other countries have the right to have different laws.)
    The relevant legal issue was whether or not the Romeikes had established
    a 'well-founded fear of persecution on account of a protected ground'--
    religious freedom in this case. The Romeikes failed to establish that they
    were being discriminated against on account of their religious beliefs.
    The German authorities would have been bound to act in accordance with
    the law against the Romeikes regardless of their expressed reasons for not
    sending their children to school outside their home. I suspect that the
    German law against home-schooling originally arose out of an intent to
    prevent, for instance, pro-Nazi parents from indoctrinating their children
    in Nazi ideology at home. Is the home-schooling of children a fundamental
    human right that should warrant the protection of asylum in the USA?

    While Uwe and Hannelore Romeike seem to be well-meaning parents who
    love their children, I don't understand why their claim for asylum should be
    granted when more apparently deserving applicants have been rejected.
    What do you think?
  2. 15 May '13 23:05 / 1 edit
    We have Somalians, Nigerians, Mexicans, etc, BY THE MILLIONS coming into America and be ON WELFARE and commit crimes and still be allowed to stay, but a nice (white) self-supporting German family can't be granted asylum?
    Just one more reason I have no allegiance to America anymore, this country disgusts me.
  3. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    15 May '13 23:27 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    In 2008 Uwe and Hannelore Romeike and their children emigrated from
    Germany to the United States. The Romeikes claimed that they had been
    unfairly persecuted in Germany because it's illegal there for them to educate
    their children as they prefer at home. (School attendance is compulsory in
    Germany.) The Romeikes' claim for asylum was initially grant
    granted when more apparently deserving applicants have been rejected.
    What do you think?
    Are there private schools in Germany?
  4. 15 May '13 23:33
    No home schooling allowed send your child to a government approved school for proper brainwashing or go to jail
  5. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    15 May '13 23:35 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by KilgoreTrout15
    We have Somalians, Nigerians, Mexicans, etc, BY THE MILLIONS coming into America and be ON WELFARE and commit crimes and still be allowed to stay, but a nice (white) self-supporting German family can't be granted asylum?
    Just one more reason I have no allegiance to America anymore, this country disgusts me.
    Would your opinion change if they are a nice (Black) self-supporting German family? There are blacks in Germany, ya know.
  6. 15 May '13 23:53
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Would your opinion change if they are a nice ([b]Black) self-supporting German family? There are blacks in Germany, ya know.[/b]
    Like I said...
    MILLIONS of Somalians, Nigerians, etc, that are being granted asylum...
    and ONE white family from Germany gets denied....
    Defend that please.
    Don't change the color and act like it means anything .
  7. 16 May '13 00:10
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    In 2008 Uwe and Hannelore Romeike and their children emigrated from
    Germany to the United States. The Romeikes claimed that they had been
    unfairly persecuted in Germany because it's illegal there for them to educate
    their children as they prefer at home. (School attendance is compulsory in
    Germany.) The Romeikes' claim for asylum was initially grant ...[text shortened]...
    granted when more apparently deserving applicants have been rejected.
    What do you think?
    The 6th Circuit apparently did not want to address the Constitutionality of compulsory education laws in the United States, or the matter of State run, funded and controlled schools here.

    Apparently, the Romeike family found conditions here better than what they faced in Germany. Whether the German mandatory education is sufficient grounds for asylum is another argument. Is the US by our tolerance duty bound to give asylum to every person who feels violated by the laws of their native land? This question becomes more meaningful, when we can't give asylum to our own who find the laws intolerant of their beliefs or practices (homosexuals, Christians, Sharia Muslims)

    A nation can't be all things to everyone. What pleases one group often offends another. That was one of the magics of the Federalist system of the US Constitution, that Puritans in Massachusetts could establish a theocracy, and other States could be entirely secular. People who didn't like one or the other could move freely, as freely as they had to get to these shores.

    There are still remnants of this system left, and the Romeikes could find States which permit homeschooling, and actually support it. The same is true for pious Muslims, or homosexuals. There are communities and States which are more favorable to them. It is actually not desirable that all States or the national government try to accommodate everyone equally.
  8. 16 May '13 00:18
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Are there private schools in Germany?
    Yes, the right to establish private schools is written in the Grundgesetz
    ('fundamental law' or constitution) of the Bundesrepublik Deutschland.
    There are two types of private schools: Ersatzschulen (substitute schools)
    and Ergaenzungsschulen (auxiliary schools). The Ergaenzungsschulen
    tend to be vocational schools (for students not on an academic track).
    The Ersatzschulen are considered 'private schools', but they must comply
    with government regulations (with regard to academic standards and
    teacher qualifications) and usually are financed with state subsidies in
    addition to their tuition fees or donations.

    http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2011/07/priv-j05.html
    "Private school businesses are booming in Germany. Given the austerity
    policies of the federal and state governments which have significantly
    lowered educational standards in public schools, more and more parents
    are choosing to send their children to private schools."
    --Clara Weiss (5 July 2011)
  9. 16 May '13 00:22 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Would your opinion change if they are a nice ([b]Black) self-supporting German family? There are blacks in Germany, ya know.[/b]
    Would YOUR opinion change if they were a black family and it was called unfair and racist?
    You bet it would. You'd be screaming to high heaven about how awful it was.
    But they are white so hey it's OK with the marauder
  10. 16 May '13 00:26
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Are there private schools in Germany?
    http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0130/p07s02-woeu.html

    Apparently, the answer is yes. The cost is quite astonishing. And, I would be that the age old question of the private being at least partly controlled by the public is still an issue, as it has been in the US as long as I can remember.
  11. 16 May '13 00:34
    Originally posted by KilgoreTrout15
    We have Somalians, Nigerians, Mexicans, etc, BY THE MILLIONS coming into America and be ON WELFARE and commit crimes and still be allowed to stay, but a nice (white) self-supporting German family can't be granted asylum?
    Just one more reason I have no allegiance to America anymore, this country disgusts me.
    'Apples and oranges'. The Romeikes' appeal for asylum should be compared
    only to other people who have appealed for asylum in the United States and
    *not* to everyone else who has arrived for any other reasons.

    As far as I know, extremely few of the many Mexicans who have come,
    legally or illegally, to the United States have applied for asylum and claimed
    that they have a 'well-founded fear of persecution on a protected ground'.
    While there's ample violence related to criminal gangs in Mexico, the US
    government seems *not* to regard a Mexican's claim of "I'm afraid to go
    back to Mexico because a drug gangster likely would kill me" as a
    'well-founded fear of persecution on a *protected ground*'.

    By the way, some Afghans who worked (usually as interpreters or guides)
    for the US military and have been marked for death by the Taliban are still
    stuck on a long waiting list for asylum in the United States. Many of them
    seem to regret ever having believed the American promises that the US
    government would protect and look after the Afghans who helped the USA.
  12. 16 May '13 00:45
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    'Apples and oranges'. The Romeikes' appeal for asylum should be compared
    only to other people who have appealed for asylum in the United States and
    *not* to everyone else who has arrived for any other reasons.

    As far as I know, extremely few of the many Mexicans who have come,
    legally or illegally, to the United States have applied for asylum and c ...[text shortened]... that the US
    government would protect and look after the Afghans who helped the USA.
    Do you think it is possible, or advisable for the US to attempt to give asylum to everyone who needs or asks for it?
  13. 16 May '13 00:46 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by no1marauder to KilgoreTrout15
    Would your opinion change if they are a nice ([b]Black) self-supporting German family? There are blacks in Germany, ya know.[/b]
    There's a significant minority of Deutsch-Tuerken, Germans of Turkish
    heritage (mostly Muslims). Philipp Roesler, Vice Chancellor of Germany,
    is of Vietnamese ancestry (he was adopted by German parents from a
    Saigon orphanage). Marcel Nguyen, a 2012 Olympic silver medalist for
    Germany, is the son of a Vietnamese father and a German mother.
    There are children with black American fathers (usually in the US military)
    and white German mothers. And, of course, there are immigrants (and their
    descendants) from African countries.
  14. 16 May '13 01:19
    Originally posted by normbenign
    The 6th Circuit apparently did not want to address the Constitutionality of compulsory education laws in the United States, or the matter of State run, funded and controlled schools here.

    Apparently, the Romeike family found conditions here better than what they faced in Germany. Whether the German mandatory education is sufficient grounds for asylum ...[text shortened]... not desirable that all States or the national government try to accommodate everyone equally.
    "The 6th Circuit apparently did not want to address the Constitutionality
    of compulsory education laws in the United States..."
    --Normbenign

    "The Constitutionality of compulsory education laws in the United States"
    was irrelevant to the Romeikes' argument for asylum. Did the Romeikes
    establish a 'well-founded fear of persecution on a protected ground'? No.

    Is Normbenign ignorant enough (as in most other subjects) to believe that
    a federal court should attempt to address the constitutionality of a law that
    does not apply to its particular case on trial? That's not what courts do.

    "...the Romeikes could find (US) States which permit homeschooling..."
    --Normbenign

    The Romeikes face deportation to Germany, which would make it
    inconvenient for them (in Normbenign's fantasy) to shop around for a
    US state that would be more encouraging of home-schooling children.
  15. 16 May '13 01:24
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    "The 6th Circuit apparently did not want to address the Constitutionality
    of compulsory education laws in the United States..."
    --Normbenign

    "The Constitutionality of compulsory education laws in the United States"
    was irrelevant to the Romeikes' argument for asylum. Did the Romeikes
    establish a 'well-founded fear of persecution on a protected gro ...[text shortened]... hop around for a
    US state that would be more encouraging of home-schooling children.
    That may be the case, now that they have spent considerable time and money pursuing this case to the appeals court level, usually a time consuming process.

    In the meantime, they could have addressed the problem as I've suggested. Now we learn, from both you and me, that there are alternatives in Germany, and that the situation isn't that different there than here.

    I have little sympathy for people who bring their problems here, and expect the courts to make all things right. There are home schoolers here being persecuted by the government.