Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    24 Jun '18 05:38
    Originally posted by @tom-wolsey
    The democrats prefer a "President Pence" scenario. Not sure why.
    How much damage can he do in 2 years before we vote him out?
  2. Germany
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    24 Jun '18 07:08
    Originally posted by @metal-brain
    Are you saying Trump does not listen to his economic advisors? If it was important that the POTUS be educated in economics to the American people don't you think we would be electing people with economics degrees? We don't, so what is your point?
    My point is that Trump doesn't have a coherent ideology.

    That 40% of Americans think it's fine to have a moron in charge is not news to me.

    I don't think that politicians necessarily need to be experts in every field, but they should at least have some broad, basic knowledge and a willingness to listen to the experts. Trump, of course, has neither.
  3. Subscriberkmax87
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    24 Jun '18 11:20
    Originally posted by @kazetnagorra
    My point is that Trump doesn't have a coherent ideology.

    That 40% of Americans think it's fine to have a moron in charge is not news to me.

    I don't think that politicians necessarily need to be experts in every field, but they should at least have some broad, basic knowledge and a willingness to listen to the experts. Trump, of course, has neither.
    Trumps anti free trade stance is probably one of his most consistent ideological positions that he has held on American trade for many a decade. Whether he may be able to adequately prosecute a case for protectionism or not, it's definitely a perspective he's held for a very long time, which is in line with what the GOP generally believed in until relatively recently.

    Even Reagan who is generally credited as being in favour of free trade, held on to many protectionist policies. Trump may be out of step with the majority GOP view on free trade these days, but his protectionist view really resonated with his base as well. Whether he really believes it or not, whether he understands the economic pitfalls of it or not or whether it's simply an ingrained view handed down from his father that's part of his DNA, becoming an axiomatic truth with much repitition and therefore not requiring any proof, it's hard to say.
    But what can easily be said is that Trump following through on his protectionist views, is one of the least surprising outcomes of his Presidency, given the historical anti free trade position he has held.
  4. Subscriberno1marauder
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    24 Jun '18 21:37
    Originally posted by @kmax87
    Trumps anti free trade stance is probably one of his most consistent ideological positions that he has held on American trade for many a decade. Whether he may be able to adequately prosecute a case for protectionism or not, it's definitely a perspective he's held for a very long time, which is in line with what the GOP generally believed in until relatively ...[text shortened]... urprising outcomes of his Presidency, given the historical anti free trade position he has held.
    Is it? How can a businessman who's organization derives much, if not most, of its revenue from overseas investment be really "anti free trade?" After all, the global neoliberal movement was really about free movement of capital just as much as free movement of goods and it is pretty ideologically incoherent to bash one but financially benefit from the other.
  5. Joined
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    24 Jun '18 22:36
    Originally posted by @kazetnagorra
    My point is that Trump doesn't have a coherent ideology.

    That 40% of Americans think it's fine to have a moron in charge is not news to me.

    I don't think that politicians necessarily need to be experts in every field, but they should at least have some broad, basic knowledge and a willingness to listen to the experts. Trump, of course, has neither.
    40% of Americans see people like you as nothing more than a fool.
  6. Joined
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    24 Jun '18 22:53
    Originally posted by @mott-the-hoople
    40% of Americans see people like you as nothing more than a fool.
    I don't think we are losing any sleep over that. 😴
  7. Subscriberkmax87
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    25 Jun '18 02:371 edit
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    Is it? How can a businessman who's organization derives much, if not most, of its revenue from overseas investment be really "anti free trade?" After all, the global neoliberal movement was really about free movement of capital just as much as free movement of goods and it is pretty ideologically incoherent to bash one but financially benefit from the other.
    Just because Trump enjoys the benefits of low cost labor in his clothing and apparel lines, does not mean he is not aware of the way in which free trade has wiped out large sectors of the workforce and created a huge trade deficit with its major trading partners that is unsustainable.

    The question is, the extent to which it is healthy for any economy of scale to operate under a trade deficit arrangement with one of its major trading partners.There is a difference to free and fair trade.

    No country truly embraces free and open trade anyway. China is a master of limiting access to its agricultural markets and makes it almost impossible, if not impossible for direct foreign investment to occur on its shores, while it China, buys up container terminals and port facilities across the globe and secures agricultural and mining access wherever it can but without offering any other nation reciprocal access.

    Free trade is not fair trade when the subsidies of various acts of pork barreling on the part of Government to placate politically powerful sectors of the economy are taken into account. These subsidies significantly deflate the price of goods in the sectors that receive them thus making it impossible for a country that does not also subsidize that sector to be able to trade competitively on the world market. Trade imbalances and deficits usually indicate the absence of a level playing field. For trade to be truly free also requires equal access to each others markets as well as a level of transparency that can demonstrate that the competitive advantage one nation may have over the other is not simply because of the subsidies that nation pumps into selected industries.

    At the end of the day, tariffs are a means to compensate for the perceived subsidies various sectors receive from their governments in order to approach some aspect of a level playing field in free and fair world trade.
  8. Joined
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    25 Jun '18 04:01
    Originally posted by @kazetnagorra
    My point is that Trump doesn't have a coherent ideology.

    That 40% of Americans think it's fine to have a moron in charge is not news to me.

    I don't think that politicians necessarily need to be experts in every field, but they should at least have some broad, basic knowledge and a willingness to listen to the experts. Trump, of course, has neither.
    Don't underestimate the ignorance of the common people in any country. Remember GW Bush? He was a moron too and a lot of people loved him.
    You have no idea he is not listening to his advisors. That is pure speculation on your part. The truth is a retard could be president if he/she simply took the advice of advisors. Some advisors might be wrong though. I don't think ignoring your advisors is necessarily proof of ignorance. It certainly can be, but not always.
  9. Joined
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    25 Jun '18 04:03
    Originally posted by @kmax87
    Trumps anti free trade stance is probably one of his most consistent ideological positions that he has held on American trade for many a decade. Whether he may be able to adequately prosecute a case for protectionism or not, it's definitely a perspective he's held for a very long time, which is in line with what the GOP generally believed in until relatively ...[text shortened]... urprising outcomes of his Presidency, given the historical anti free trade position he has held.
    There is no such thing as free trade. It doesn't exist in reality.
  10. Subscriberno1marauder
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    25 Jun '18 05:17
    Originally posted by @kmax87
    Just because Trump enjoys the benefits of low cost labor in his clothing and apparel lines, does not mean he is not aware of the way in which free trade has wiped out large sectors of the workforce and created a huge trade deficit with its major trading partners that is unsustainable.

    The question is, the extent to which it is healthy for any economy of s ...[text shortened]... ernments in order to approach some aspect of a level playing field in free and fair world trade.
    How does your "free trade-fair trade" explanation for Trump's "ideology" explain his expressed opposition to NAFTA, which eliminated all tariffs between the three countries (except a small number of agricultural products with Canada)? https://ustr.gov/trade-agreements/free-trade-agreements/north-american-free-trade-agreement-nafta
  11. Subscriberkmax87
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    25 Jun '18 11:57
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    How does your "free trade-fair trade" explanation for Trump's "ideology" explain his expressed opposition to NAFTA, which eliminated all tariffs between the three countries (except a small number of agricultural products with Canada)? https://ustr.gov/trade-agreements/free-trade-agreements/north-american-free-trade-agreement-nafta
    We swallowed the same blue pill in Australia in terms of what free trade would bring and signed on to APEC which was less a free trade agreement than a steering body whose remit it was to usher in free trade across the Asian region by 2010.

    The same things that Bill Clinton promised would happen for Americans under NAFTA, were promised Australians by signing up to APEC.And lest we get partisan, setting up the framework for NAFTA happened on GHB's watch and if he had won another 4 years, he would have signed it into being, not Bill.

    Interestingly the losers in both countries were the Auto Industry, the textile industry and a myriad of small manufacturing operations that simply bit the dust. NAFTA was not alone in this decimation of American workers, China also played its part. But if you see how US Auto workers numbers initially rose under NAFTA, they were in steep decline from 2000 onwards. Here in Australia, 2017 was the year that Car manufacturing closed which had the knock on effect of shuttering hundreds of smaller engineering companies that existed because a large percentage of their work supplied our local car industry. Thousands of jobs simply wiped out.

    So while the big corporate monopolies win big, because they make money regardless of who mans the conveyor belts, the little guy loses, and Trump needs the little guy to have money to support the businesses he runs.
  12. Subscribermoonbus
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    25 Jun '18 19:08
    The trade war is hotting up:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-44604280

    If Trump thinks he can impose tariffs without any consequences, he is a dunce indeed.
  13. Standard memberLundos
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    25 Jun '18 20:182 edits
    Originally posted by @athousandyoung
    How much damage can he do in 2 years before we vote him out?
    On the international stage he's kicked South Korea in the a$$ with his 'friendship' with the Rocket Man. With the reduced level of personel and drills in the area, China looks like a much stonger presence in the region, which also screws Japan. That's two allies down the drain.

    Now the trade wars are just beginning, which means Canada and the EU are becoming more and more annoyed with him.That's more or less the rest of the important allies.

    With leaving the UN Human Rights Council and the Paris agreement Trump are starting to dismantle the international institutions.

    Since the goal is:
    "Complete, verifiable, irreversible dismantlement!"
    I expect us to see a lot more of this.
  14. Standard memberLundos
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    25 Jun '18 20:20
    Originally posted by @moonbus
    The trade war is hotting up:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-44604280

    If Trump thinks he can impose tariffs without any consequences, he is a dunce indeed.
    Trump is an idiot. I think most of the world knows this.

    China and North Korea certainly played him for one. Putin's been doing it for years.
  15. SubscriberSuzianne
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    25 Jun '18 20:23
    Originally posted by @lundos
    On the international stage he's kicked South Korea in the a$$ with his 'friendship' with the Rocket Man. With the reduced level of personal and drills in the area, China looks like a much stonger presence in the region, which also screws Japan. That's two allies down the drain.

    Now the trade wars are just beginning, which means Canada and the EU are beco ...[text shortened]... is:
    "Complete, verifiable, irreversible dismantlement!"
    I expect us to see a lot more of this.
    The question was referring to Pence, not Trump.
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