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Debates Forum

  1. 06 Jun '13 22:56
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/06/britain-mau-mau-empire-waiting

    "Britain has said sorry to the Mau Mau.The rest of the empire is still waiting."
    --Caroline Elkins (6 June 2013, 'The Guardian'

    "British liberalism in empire--with its alleged spread of civilisation, progress,
    liberty and rule of law justifying any coercive actions--has been irreversibly
    exposed. Instead of being one-offs, Britain's colonial violence was as
    systematized as its efforts at cover-up."
    --Caroline Elkins

    What Caroline Elkins wrote (which I quoted) is not news to me; as a child
    I would hear my father denounce British imperialism, militarism, and racism.
    The UK government's (belated) apology might astonish, however, people
    who trust the likes of Niall Ferguson, a right-wing British historian who has
    written a popular history of the British Empire in which almost all imperial
    wrongdoing was ignored or whitewashed.
  2. Standard member sasquatch672
    Don't Like It Leave
    06 Jun '13 23:46
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/06/britain-mau-mau-empire-waiting

    "Britain has said sorry to the Mau Mau.The rest of the empire is still waiting."
    --Caroline Elkins (6 June 2013, 'The Guardian'

    "British liberalism in empire--with its alleged spread of civilisation, progress,
    liberty and rule of law justifying any coercive actions ...[text shortened]... the British Empire in which almost all imperial
    wrongdoing was ignored or whitewashed.
    I think a nuanced reading of British history will show imperial brutality in cultures already accustomed to brutality. This has the potential to be a very interesting discussion.
  3. 07 Jun '13 00:06
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/06/mau-mau-sinning-quietly?INTCMP=SRCH

    "Mau Mau: sinning quietly. The denial of justice to victims of British
    torture, some of which Britain admits, is set to continue."
    --The Guardian (6 June 2013)

    "The use of torture was condoned at the highest levels as it was taking
    place....It has taken 60 long years for a minister of the British government
    to come clean and, even then, William Hague's statement of sincere regret,
    while welcome, *fell short of a full apology*. To apologise might be
    interpreted as admitting liability... We, who are so quick to condemn
    others about human rights, must deal with our own dark deeds first."
    --The Guardian
  4. 07 Jun '13 00:39
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/06/mau-mau-sinning-quietly?INTCMP=SRCH

    "Mau Mau: sinning quietly. The denial of justice to victims of British
    torture, some of which Britain admits, is set to continue."
    --The Guardian (6 June 2013)

    "The use of torture was condoned at the highest levels as it was taking
    place....It has taken 60 l ...[text shortened]... emn
    others about human rights, must deal with our own dark deeds first."
    --The Guardian
    I see it as quite foolish and hypocritical to evaluate things done by governments several centuries ago by contemporary standards.

    The reality is that of course the British did some bad things, but the current government of Britain is in no position to apologize for the actions of Brits hundreds of years ago. Most of the world has become more enlightened, except those parts that still engage in regular enslavement, torture, and genocide.
  5. 07 Jun '13 02:11
    Originally posted by normbenign
    I see it as quite foolish and hypocritical to evaluate things done by governments several centuries ago by contemporary standards.

    The reality is that of course the British did some bad things, but the current government of Britain is in no position to apologize for the actions of Brits hundreds of years ago. Most of the world has become more enlightened, except those parts that still engage in regular enslavement, torture, and genocide.
    "I see it as quite foolish and hypocritical to evaluate things done by
    governments *several centuries ago* by contemporary standards."
    --Normbenign

    Normbenign's extreme ignorance of history strikes again!

    The UK's offences (including torture, rape, castration) against suspected
    supporters of the Mau Mau in Kenya took place *within living memory*.
    The UK government has agreed to pay 2600 GBP (4000+ USD) to each of
    the 5200 *surviving* vetted claimants. Receiving 2600 GBP hardly seems
    like generous 'compensation' for having been raped or castrated, does it?
    Please note that *only* the actual victims, *not* their descendants, are
    being offered any financial compensation.

    Would Normbenign also object to European Jewish victims of the Holocaust
    being given (more generous) financial compensation by Germany? The
    Holocaust took place *before* the British abuses of Mau Mau supporters.
  6. 07 Jun '13 08:09
    We here in Ireland know all about your British brutality.
    We had to endure it for 700 years.

    You can still see elements of true British nature at any football match.

    How else do you think that political parties like UKIP and the BNP survive?

    If Britain was as civilized as you would have us believe then there would be
    no BNP and no UKIP. Both of these political parties are racist inward
    looking neanderthals who care nothing for anyone who is not British
    or more to the point "English".
  7. 07 Jun '13 11:01
    Great...now who's going to apologise for the unspeakable Mau Mau atrocities?
  8. 07 Jun '13 12:44
    Originally posted by johnnylongwoody
    We here in Ireland know all about your British brutality.
    We had to endure it for 700 years.

    You can still see elements of true British nature at any football match.

    How else do you think that political parties like UKIP and the BNP survive?

    If Britain was as civilized as you would have us believe then there would be
    no BNP and no UKIP. ...[text shortened]... neanderthals who care nothing for anyone who is not British
    or more to the point "English".
    "Both of these political parties are racist inward
    looking neanderthals who care nothing for anyone who is not British
    or more to the point "English"


    says the man calling for a mass culling of muslims.
  9. 07 Jun '13 14:29
    Originally posted by johnnylongwoody
    We here in Ireland know all about your British brutality.
    We had to endure it for 700 years.

    You can still see elements of true British nature at any football match.

    How else do you think that political parties like UKIP and the BNP survive?

    If Britain was as civilized as you would have us believe then there would be
    no BNP and no UKIP. ...[text shortened]... neanderthals who care nothing for anyone who is not British
    or more to the point "English".
    If UKIP and BNP are representative of the 'true British nature', then why did they only receive 3% and 2% of the votes respectively in the last general election. They currently have no seats between them in our Parliament.

    Unfortunately, you are sounding more like Dasa and RJHinds everyday. This is not a good thing.
  10. 07 Jun '13 22:47
    Originally posted by KilgoreTrout15
    Great...now who's going to apologise for the unspeakable Mau Mau atrocities?
    While the Mau Mau killed civilians (mostly black Kenyans suspected of
    collaborating with the British rather than white settlers), their atrocities
    seem significantly less than those by the British authorities and the settlers.
    I would also submit that the British governing colonial authority, which was
    supposed to stand for 'the rule of law', had a greater moral responsibility
    to act humanely than the desperate insurgents they were fighting.

    One British official in Kenya stated that the British concentration camps for
    suspected Mau Mau supporters had significantly worse conditions than the
    Japanese camps for British POWs in the Second World War.
  11. 07 Jun '13 22:59
    Originally posted by johnnylongwoody
    We here in Ireland know all about your British brutality.
    We had to endure it for 700 years.

    You can still see elements of true British nature at any football match.

    How else do you think that political parties like UKIP and the BNP survive?

    If Britain was as civilized as you would have us believe then there would be
    no BNP and no UKIP. ...[text shortened]... neanderthals who care nothing for anyone who is not British
    or more to the point "English".
    Johnnylongwoody's personal rants at me belong in the realm of the absurd.

    'We here in Ireland know all about your British brutality.
    We had to endure it for 700 years.'
    --Johnnylongwoody

    I don't know where (or even who) my ancestors were 700 years ago,
    but I doubt that they were in Ireland, unless some of them happened
    to be Irish themselves.

    "You can still see elements of true British nature at any football match."
    --Johnnylongwoody

    Would these be English, Scottish, or Welsh elements? I think that if the
    British were more like the Germans, they would become more popular as
    well as better at football!

    "If Britain was as civilized as you would have us to believe then there
    would be no BNP and no UKIP."
    --Johnnylongwoody

    So Johnnylongwoody has miscontrued the fact that I created a thread
    about British crimes in Kenya as evidence that I allegedly support the
    BNP or the UKIP? When I criticise British imperialism, Johnnylongwoody
    wrongly concludes that must mean that I support British imperialism!

    Johnnylongwoody's usual personal fantasies about me are ludicrous.
    He seems to have confused me with Lady Diana Mosley, nee Mitford.
    When, as a debutante, Duchess64 was presented at court, did she
    curtsey to the Queen?
  12. 07 Jun '13 23:06
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    While the Mau Mau killed civilians (mostly black Kenyans suspected of
    collaborating with the British rather than white settlers), their atrocities
    seem significantly less than those by the British authorities and the settlers.
    I would also submit that the British governing colonial authority, which was
    supposed to stand for 'the rule of law', had a g ...[text shortened]... nificantly worse conditions than the
    Japanese camps for British POWs in the Second World War.
    Really?
    Google mau mau atrocities and get back to me.
  13. 07 Jun '13 23:07
    Originally posted by stellspalfie to Johnnylongwoody
    [b]"Both of these political parties are racist inward
    looking neanderthals who care nothing for anyone who is not British
    or more to the point "English"


    says the man calling for a mass culling of muslims.[/b]
    Evidently, Johnnylongwoody's a close-minded bigoted Irish nationalist who
    cannot deal with a real Ireland and a real Britain. Johnnylongwoody prefers
    to believe in a mythical Ireland (where he claims that racism does not exist)
    and a stereotypical 'Ugly' Britain. In reality, the UK has become a very
    diverse society (yes, its diversity has made some Britons uncomfortable).
    Many people in the UK sincerely oppose British imperialism and racism.
    Indeed, many people in the UK today are descended from people who once
    fought against the British Empire. While there's much to criticise in British
    history, there's also much to admire in how British culture has adapted.
  14. 07 Jun '13 23:15
    Originally posted by KilgoreTrout15
    Really?
    Google mau mau atrocities and get back to me.
    According to Wikipedia, the Mau Mau were responsible for killing
    1819 African, 32 European, and 26 Asian civilians (not counting the
    Africans who disappeared and whose bodies never were found).
    That's under 2000 confirmed civilian deaths, which seems
    significantly fewer (as I wrote) than the black Kenyan civilians who
    were killed as suspected Mau Mau supporters by the British.
  15. 08 Jun '13 01:17
    Originally posted by Duchess64
    "I see it as quite foolish and hypocritical to evaluate things done by
    governments *several centuries ago* by contemporary standards."
    --Normbenign

    Normbenign's extreme ignorance of history strikes again!

    The UK's offences (including torture, rape, castration) against suspected
    supporters of the Mau Mau in Kenya took place *within living memory* ...[text shortened]... by Germany? The
    Holocaust took place *before* the British abuses of Mau Mau supporters.
    "Normbenign's extreme ignorance of history strikes again!"

    How, other than in your mind? The current population of the UK isn't responsible for whatever atrocities were committed by the British Empire in Kenya whether in the 1950s, or in the 17th to 19th centuries.

    As to awards for the actions of Hitler's Reich against Jews, the same principle applies. Germany's current government and people can't help what Hitler did.

    It is like the lunacy of reparations for slavery in the US. The people who would be forced to pay or apologize aren't the wrongdoers.