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  1. 17 Jan '17 18:11
    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/recap-theresa-may-brexit-speech-9636113?service=responsive

    Fairly impressive speech that covered all the crucial issues. No more Theresa Maybe.
  2. Standard member shavixmir
    Guppy poo
    17 Jan '17 20:11
    Originally posted by Ashiitaka
    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/recap-theresa-may-brexit-speech-9636113?service=responsive

    Fairly impressive speech that covered all the crucial issues. No more Theresa Maybe.
    Yup. England's gonna get done over like a sheep in Wales.

    Scotland is gonna get it's independence outta this. That'll be good anyway.
  3. 17 Jan '17 21:26
    May took the easy way out by pandering to the racists and not attempting to stay in the common market. This will cost the U.K. taxpayer billions. It will be curious to see how many Tories will lose their seats to pro-EU candidates because of this, although given the amnesia of the average voter they'll probably have forgotten by the time of the next election.
  4. 17 Jan '17 21:51
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    May took the easy way out by pandering to the racists and not attempting to stay in the common market. This will cost the U.K. taxpayer billions. It will be curious to see how many Tories will lose their seats to pro-EU candidates because of this, although given the amnesia of the average voter they'll probably have forgotten by the time of the next election.
    When practically every constituency in the heart of Tory England voted to leave? Seems unlikely.
  5. 17 Jan '17 21:52
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    May took the easy way out by pandering to the racists and not attempting to stay in the common market. This will cost the U.K. taxpayer billions. It will be curious to see how many Tories will lose their seats to pro-EU candidates because of this, although given the amnesia of the average voter they'll probably have forgotten by the time of the next election.
    Why would she stay in the Common market, when you have to subscribe to all the EU rules? That is even worse than membership as you don't have a say on them, like norway.
  6. 17 Jan '17 21:56
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    Yup. England's gonna get done over like a sheep in Wales.

    Scotland is gonna get it's independence outta this. That'll be good anyway.
    No, it won't. The SNP can only decline from here as it becomes more and more obvious that the UK economy is booming, oil prices remain low and Nicola Sturgeon continues to alienate leave voters who supported independence in 2014.

    It's up to the Scottish people at the end of the day whether they want to preserve their economy and place as part of one of the world's most powerful countries, but if they choose to leave The United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland's budget deficit will shrink, and we won't have to deal with Nicola Sturgeon doing everything in her power to try and irritate English people, which furthers her cause.
  7. 17 Jan '17 21:57
    Originally posted by Ashiitaka
    Why would she stay in the Common market, when you have to subscribe to all the EU rules? That is even worse than membership as you don't have a say on them, like norway.
    Because the U.K. is in a much weaker negotiation position than the EU and it will have to fork over billions in tariffs and screw over U.K. industry just so they can stop a few Polish plumbers and keep British neo-Nazis happy.
  8. 17 Jan '17 22:01 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    May took the easy way out by pandering to the racists and not attempting to stay in the common market. This will cost the U.K. taxpayer billions. It will be curious to see how many Tories will lose their seats to pro-EU candidates because of this, although given the amnesia of the average voter they'll probably have forgotten by the time of the next election.
    Labour, not the tories, will be crucified because of their lack of a clear stance on the issue. The polls show labour is facing electoral annihilation similar to what happened to them in Scotland because of their inability to take a stance on independence. The Lib Dems will snap remain labour seats in London and the Tories will snap leave seats elsewhere. The tories, once unspeakable north of the border, have completely revived their fortunes by taking the image of the primary unionist party.
  9. 17 Jan '17 22:05 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Because the U.K. is in a much weaker negotiation position than the EU and it will have to fork over billions in tariffs and screw over U.K. industry just so they can stop a few Polish plumbers and keep British neo-Nazis happy.
    Actually, the UK holds all the aces. If you watched the speech you would know that.

    The EU itself is at its weakest in its history at the moment, and a wrong move or one bad election could bring the whole thing down. What advantage do they have over the UK anyway? The single market that nobody wants or needs and that the rest of the world prospers just fine without?
  10. 17 Jan '17 22:08 / 1 edit
    The goal isn't to break up the EU anyway, if the other member states think it benefits them then each to their own. It's in the interests of Britain for the EU to be a success because stronger growth provides better markets.
  11. 17 Jan '17 22:54 / 3 edits
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Because the U.K. is in a much weaker negotiation position than the EU and it will have to fork over billions in tariffs and screw over U.K. industry just so they can stop a few Polish plumbers and keep British neo-Nazis happy.
    It's quite hypocritical for you to accuse the British of neo-nazism. UKIP, which polls at 10%, has its most "extreme" view in leaving the EU customs union and single market. It's not racist. Please don't throw that word around just because it makes you feel righteous, please be rational. They simply want to have control over EU immigration, just like 90% percent of other countries. Are Canadians Nazis for having Immigration control? No, right?. Isn't it a little odd that the UK pays the second largest amount into the EU budget, yet has no control over its own fate in the EU, while Germany, France and Italy have all the say? It's like the UK pays Brussels officials' exorbitant salaries to then be told what to do. A simple law of the universe is that he who has the gold makes the rules. High time some people learned that.

    Back to Neo-nazism. In France, the FN, as you are aware, is polling at 25 percent of the vote. Not only is that 2.5 times higher than support for UKIP, but the FN was founded by an ACTUAL neo-nazi who was also a holocaust denialist. Oh, and they also support Frexit.

    In the Netherlands, Geert Wilders is polling at 25% percent as well. He has made perfectly clear over the past decade his hatred for muslims and morroccans in particular, and has called for a complete "De-Islamification" of the Netherlands, which would include banning the Koran and tearing down mosques. He also made a propaganda movie about Islam. Need I mention that he also supports leaving the EU?

    Germany has AfD, which is the worst of all three, but thankfully the are only polling at 15%(which is still more than UKIP, and it is even more shocking considering Germany's history and responsibility in particular to suppress nazism). AfD has openly said same-sex marriage and adoption are a "moral decay" and advocate "old gender roles". Basically they want women to be as disenfranchised as they were in Nazi Germany.

    They also, like Trump, deny global warming, and perhaps more worryingly, support conscription to rearm Germany. Again. For the third time.

    WILL THEY EVER LEARN?

    So yes, you have parties that are far worse that are also polling far higher to worry about in Europe, and unlike UKIP, they actually can be called Nazis, and they actually stand a chance of winning elections. Geert Wilders almost certainly will, although a coalition can hopefully keep him out. UKIP doesn't seem so bad anymore, ey?

    May I remind you that the British took up the moral fight against Germany, not once, but twice, at their own expense and in the case of WW1, optionally, simply to protect a neutral state. They sacrificed everything, the empire, their prosperity, and lives to save Europe from annihilation, while Sweden, Switzerland, Spain, Portugal and Ireland refused to fight, while France rolled over and died as usual and Italy joined the axis. Without the British fight against Nazism, We would no doubt live in tyranny.

    Yet the ungrateful behaviour and hatred towards Britain displayed by France knows no end, despite the fact that they would not exist as a nation if it weren't for Britain.

    Please do some introspection before accusing other countries of racism and nazism, as it is in your best interests. Simply throwing those terms around because it is easy rather than dealing with the problems that cause them will only enhance the cases and agenda of those parties which I have previously mentioned, and you, unlike the UK, might actually be lumped with Mrs Le Pen as president.
  12. Standard member shavixmir
    Guppy poo
    18 Jan '17 04:51
    Originally posted by Ashiitaka
    Why would she stay in the Common market, when you have to subscribe to all the EU rules? That is even worse than membership as you don't have a say on them, like norway.
    Are you suggesting Norway's not doing well?
  13. Standard member shavixmir
    Guppy poo
    18 Jan '17 04:56
    Originally posted by Ashiitaka
    No, it won't. The SNP can only decline from here as it becomes more and more obvious that the UK economy is booming, oil prices remain low and Nicola Sturgeon continues to alienate leave voters who supported independence in 2014.

    It's up to the Scottish people at the end of the day whether they want to preserve their economy and place as part of one of ...[text shortened]... geon doing everything in her power to try and irritate English people, which furthers her cause.
    You really don't inhabit the real world, so you?

    Most of the UK's trade is to Europe (as discussed and proven in another thread).

    The Scots will get their second referendum on this, and they're going to rip the UK up.
    All the problems of independence? Well, obviously not so much a problem as the tories propagated (the same could be said about Brexit).

    However, unlike Brexit (which leaves England alienated in the middle of the Atlantic), Scottish independence will actually mean remaining in Europe.

    See?
    And the Scots being quite canny like that, will choose wisely.
  14. Standard member shavixmir
    Guppy poo
    18 Jan '17 05:01
    Originally posted by Ashiitaka
    Actually, the UK holds all the aces. If you watched the speech you would know that.

    The EU itself is at its weakest in its history at the moment, and a wrong move or one bad election could bring the whole thing down. What advantage do they have over the UK anyway? The single market that nobody wants or needs and that the rest of the world prospers just fine without?
    The single market has helped international trade in so many ways I can't be arsed summing it up for you.

    Is the EU perfect?
    Bloody hell no!
    But, it's better than anything Europe has had before. Obviously it needs bettering (which system doesn't?), but you change it from within.

    All the complaints pro-brexit people had (bar one) are exactly the same conplaints they'd have against a national government: indeed, many of them had nothing to do with the EU at all.

    Freedom of the movement of people. That's what England rallied against.

    Okay. Fine. Bugger off.
    Goodbye and good riddence.
  15. Standard member DeepThought
    Losing the Thread
    18 Jan '17 07:53
    Originally posted by Ashiitaka
    Actually, the UK holds all the aces. If you watched the speech you would know that.

    The EU itself is at its weakest in its history at the moment, and a wrong move or one bad election could bring the whole thing down. What advantage do they have over the UK anyway? The single market that nobody wants or needs and that the rest of the world prospers just fine without?
    No, I don't think that this is right. The country with most to lose out of this is the UK. The country with most to gain, probably Ireland. The reason for that is that the UK's biggest trading partner is Germany and tariffs will hurt our industry a lot. The thing the UK is likely to get is the maintenance of the free movement zone with Ireland and tariff free trade with Eire, the reason being that the EU isn't going to want to damage the Irish economy. So, what is between possible and likely is that Ireland will become the economic point of contact between Britain and the EU. What is not going to happen is that Britain gets everything May outlined. Various European leaders have already indicated that.

    What the EU can do is put tariffs on services, more or less forcing the banks to relocate, while leaving tariffs off commodities, thereby protecting their own exports. This is difficult for Britain to resist as we import 35% of our food, mostly from Ireland, Spain and the Netherlands, and food price increases due to a combination of a weakened pound and tariffs can cause a lot of social unrest.

    Don't kid yourself, Europe holds some very powerful aces.

    David Davis made an interesting point - that no deal is better than a bad one. This is a signal to the EU that they are prepared for that - and also probably correct. Once a deal has been signed it is difficult to get out of, but with no deal one can wait and try again later.

    I disagree about your assessment of what will happen to Labour. The next election is not until 2020. There is no reason for Corbyn to start policy formation or say anything particularly committal until 2018. He has the luxury of playing a game of wait and see, and can just criticize and oppose in the meantime. If the economy is damaged by Britain's withdrawal from the EU then he will gain seats willy nilly.

    UKIP is finished, there is no longer any purpose to the party. It was always a strange alliance of people united only in their opposition to the EU. Their share of the vote will distribute between the Conservatives and Labour.