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Debates Forum

  1. Standard member bill718
    Enigma
    19 Dec '12 05:27
    The recent school shootings in Connecticut, tragic as they are, changes nothing in the way America thinks regarding guns. The gun lobby will flex it's political muscle, the NRA will (once again) preach education as a cure all, most American's won't be able to connect guns with gun connected deaths, and any law passed as a result of this slaughter will be so watered down, it will be useless. The killings will continue. God Bless America!
  2. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    19 Dec '12 15:58
    Originally posted by bill718
    The recent school shootings in Connecticut, tragic as they are, changes nothing in the way America thinks regarding guns. The gun lobby will flex it's political muscle, the NRA will (once again) preach education as a cure all, most American's won't be able to connect guns with gun connected deaths, and any law passed as a result of this slaughter will be so watered down, it will be useless. The killings will continue. God Bless America!
    Well you're in a cheery mood this morning.

    Go get some of that famous Seattle coffee. It may just make you feel better.

  3. Subscriber WoodPush
    Pusher of wood
    19 Dec '12 16:43 / 1 edit
    Life will go on, for most of us, since the likelihood of being killed in a mass shooting is about that of being struck by lightning.

    I wish we had more news coverage of lightning strikes.

    I guess there are more of those in Seattle than here. Better stay in doors with that coffee.
  4. 19 Dec '12 17:04
    Well, it changes something. Apparently sales of AR-15 assault rifles have skyrocketed.
  5. 19 Dec '12 18:04 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by WoodPush
    Life will go on, for most of us, since the likelihood of being killed in a mass shooting is about that of being struck by lightning.

    I wish we had more news coverage of lightning strikes.

    I guess there are more of those in Seattle than here. Better stay in doors with that coffee.
    I respect that point of view but have a reaction to it.

    Being killed in a mass shooting is not the only way of being deeply affected by it. There are ripples outward that can be summed up as actual PTSD (families and friends of actual victims and actual witnesses and first responders), outward to include the disheartening (and disillusionment) of the spirit of young and innocent people across the country.

    The first killing that shook my innocence was the JFK assassination. There were other assassinations in that decade and there was the Charles Whitman shootings (13 dead, 32 others wounded) from the U of Texas tower, which was the first mass shooting that I was aware of when it happened.

    This can be seen as coming to a realistic view of the world, a necessary part of growing up. But life did not simply go on as it had before. Now, as these mass shootings repeat themselves, our lives do tend to go on as they had before, but that is only to the extent that our lives have already been affected by the earlier incidents. The fact that we are not as personally affected by these recent events only means that we have already been affected by earlier ones. Others not yet affected, are just now being disheartened.

    The recent mass shooting, and all such shootings and assassinations and attempts, take me back for a while, to that terrible 4 days in November 1963.

    Here is part 1 of a documentary on the JFK assassination. The news reports are literally how the country learned of it, including the bulletins interrupting broadcast programming. It covers the first reports up to the announcement of his death.
  6. Standard member vivify
    rain
    19 Dec '12 18:41
    Originally posted by bill718
    The recent school shootings in Connecticut, tragic as they are, changes nothing in the way America thinks regarding guns. The gun lobby will flex it's political muscle, the NRA will (once again) preach education as a cure all, most American's won't be able to connect guns with gun connected deaths, and any law passed as a result of this slaughter will be so watered down, it will be useless. The killings will continue. God Bless America!
    I disagree.

    http://news.yahoo.com/obama-set-january-deadline-gun-proposals-173610698--finance.html

    WASHINGTON (AP) — Spurred by a horrific elementary school shooting, President Barack Obama tasked his administration Wednesday with creating concrete proposals to reduce gun violence that has plagued the country.
    "This time, the words need to lead to action," said Obama, who set a January deadline for the recommendations. He vowed to push for their implementation without delay.
    The president, who exerted little political capital on gun control during his first term, also pressed Congress to reinstate an assault weapons ban, which expired in 2004. He also called for stricter background checks for people who seek to purchase weapons and limited high capacity clips.

    There's only so long the NRA can actually keep the fight.
  7. 19 Dec '12 22:22
    Originally posted by bill718
    The recent school shootings in Connecticut, tragic as they are, changes nothing in the way America thinks regarding guns. The gun lobby will flex it's political muscle, the NRA will (once again) preach education as a cure all, most American's won't be able to connect guns with gun connected deaths, and any law passed as a result of this slaughter will be so watered down, it will be useless. The killings will continue. God Bless America!
    Get rid of the people who use guns to hurt the innocent.
  8. Standard member Scheel
    <blank>
    19 Dec '12 22:32
    Originally posted by Eladar
    Get rid of the people who use guns to hurt the innocent.
    You mean gun owners in general ? Probably not.

    Since repeat offenders in the group of people who use guns to hurt the innocent, does not account for a meaningful fraction of the gun killings. The problem with your vague suggestion becomes to single out the possible shooters before they shoot. How do you suggest to do that ?
  9. 19 Dec '12 23:48
    Originally posted by Scheel
    You mean gun owners in general ? Probably not.

    Since repeat offenders in the group of people who use guns to hurt the innocent, does not account for a meaningful fraction of the gun killings. The problem with your vague suggestion becomes to single out the possible shooters before they shoot. How do you suggest to do that ?
    Kill anyone who uses a gun against innocent people and you'll definitely put a dent in the population.
  10. 20 Dec '12 00:43
    Originally posted by bill718
    The recent school shootings in Connecticut, tragic as they are, changes nothing in the way America thinks regarding guns. The gun lobby will flex it's political muscle, the NRA will (once again) preach education as a cure all, most American's won't be able to connect guns with gun connected deaths, and any law passed as a result of this slaughter will be so watered down, it will be useless. The killings will continue. God Bless America!
    Have you, or anyone else made the connection yet? We've talked about the mental health of the shooters, and somehow inadequate detection, but a common thread seems to be barely mentioned.

    Nearly every school shooter I can remember since Columbine had been prescribed psychotropic drugs to control some behavioral or supposed chemical imbalance. A massive number of young boys in particular are prescribed ritalin (methylphenidate) in grammar school to contain ADD.

    We have schools full of doped up little boys, who move on to even more powerful pills as they get older. Our whole society, is addicted to a belief that there is a pill for anything.

    With psychotropics the real danger is a patient going off their meds unadvised and unobserved. Could better monitoring of such drugs, especially in school aged kids be a more likely to work path than attempting to blame and punish gun owners.
  11. 20 Dec '12 00:46
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Well, it changes something. Apparently sales of AR-15 assault rifles have skyrocketed.
    Predictably! Forbidden fruit syndrome. The minute a law is passed, and before it goes into effect more will be sold, and high capacity magazines will roll off assembly lines, enough for years of demand. Great way to insure lots of guns and mags are available.
  12. 20 Dec '12 01:10
    Originally posted by JS357
    I respect that point of view but have a reaction to it.

    Being killed in a mass shooting is not the only way of being deeply affected by it. There are ripples outward that can be summed up as actual PTSD (families and friends of actual victims and actual witnesses and first responders), outward to include the disheartening (and disillusionment) of the spirit ...[text shortened]... rrupting broadcast programming. It covers the first reports up to the announcement of his death.
    Dealing with death is a part of growing up. Until I was about 14 I had known death only among elderly family members, like my great grandmother who was 99, and my paternal grand parents.

    That was a few years prior to the Kennedy assassination. A boy about a year older than me, who I knew from church was killed in a junkyard, when a jack failed and he was crushed under a car. It wasn't a particularly close friend, but somehow death at that moment became real and possible for me.

    If anyone has a close family member, particularly a child murdered, it isn't of any concern how many others died in the same incident, the event is life altering.

    It may be time to do something, but not just to be doing something. To the people making the arguments, each side seems persuasive, but that is no reason for knee jerk reactions.
  13. 20 Dec '12 01:12
    Originally posted by bill718
    The recent school shootings in Connecticut, tragic as they are, changes nothing in the way America thinks regarding guns. The gun lobby will flex it's political muscle, the NRA will (once again) preach education as a cure all, most American's won't be able to connect guns with gun connected deaths, and any law passed as a result of this slaughter will be so watered down, it will be useless. The killings will continue. God Bless America!
    I disagree. It will be a good source of talking points for the election in 2014. I think the majority of Americans are convinced that guns need to be restricted. If so, then chalk one up for the DNC courtesy of the Connecticut tragedy.
  14. 20 Dec '12 01:27
    Originally posted by normbenign to KazetNagorra
    Predictably! Forbidden fruit syndrome. The minute a law is passed, and before
    it goes into effect more will be sold, and high capacity magazines will roll off assembly lines, enough for years of demand. Great way to insure lots of guns and mags are available.
    'Predictably! Forbidden fruit syndrome.'
    --Normbenign

    Making something illegal does not necessarily make it appear more desirable.
    For many years, interracial marriage or interracial sexual relations were banned
    in many, sometimes most, US states (not only in the South). Did that make most
    white women more eager to enjoy clandestine sexual intercourse with non-white
    men in those US states?

    On the other hand, speaking of 'forbidden fruit', perhaps if the United States
    were to stop objecting to Iran having nuclear weapons, then Iran might find it
    less desirable to develop nuclear weapons at all. (sarcasm intended)
    After all, "nuclear weapons don't kill people; people kill people".
  15. Subscriber FMF
    a.k.a. John W Booth
    20 Dec '12 01:43
    Originally posted by normbenign
    Could better monitoring of such drugs, especially in school aged kids be a more likely to work path than attempting to blame and punish gun owners.
    Would you keep the oversight and delivery of this monitoring in the private sector?