Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
    Moves
    2120
    18 Apr '18 22:101 edit
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/apr/18/kansas-terror-plot-kill-muslims-conviction

    "Three Kansas men convicted over mass 'slaughter' plot targeting Muslims:
    Militia members plotted to blow up mosque and apartment complex
    housing Somali refugees in order to ‘wake people up’ "

    "Three members of a Kansas militia with a hatred of Muslim immigrants
    have been found guilty of plotting to blow up a mosque and apartment
    complex that housed Somali refugees in order to “wake people up”.
    A federal jury in Wichita convicted Patrick Stein, Gavin Wright and Curtis Allen
    on charges of conspiracy to use a weapon of mass destruction and
    conspiracy against civil rights."

    "In phone conversations and meetings in the city of Liberal, authorities said,
    the accused referred to Muslims as “cockroaches” and denigrated Somali women."

    "In January this year the judge denied a request from the defendants’
    attorneys to increase the number of Trump voters in the jury pool."

    "The only good Muslim is a dead Muslim."
    --attributed to Patrick Stein

    Some hateful Islamophobic writers here apparently agree with that sentiment.
  2. Subscriberno1marauder
    Humble and Kind
    In the Gazette
    Joined
    22 Jun '04
    Moves
    39965
    18 Apr '18 23:58
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/apr/18/kansas-terror-plot-kill-muslims-conviction

    "Three Kansas men convicted over mass 'slaughter' plot targeting Muslims:
    Militia members plotted to blow up mosque and apartment complex
    housing Somali refugees in order to ‘wake people up’ "

    "Three members of a Kansas militia with a hatred of Muslim immig ...[text shortened]... to Patrick Stein

    Some hateful Islamophobic writers here apparently agree with that sentiment.
    Gee, I'm surprised a jury in Kansas, undoubtedly composed of a bunch of racist, Islamophobic white Americans, didn't triumphantly carry the defendants out on their shoulders to a hero's welcome rather than convicting them of charges which will probably put them away for the rest of their lives.
  3. Joined
    05 Sep '08
    Moves
    55378
    19 Apr '18 01:21
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    Gee, I'm surprised a jury in Kansas, undoubtedly composed of a bunch of racist, Islamophobic white Americans, didn't triumphantly carry the defendants out on their shoulders to a hero's welcome rather than convicting them of charges which will probably put them away for the rest of their lives.
    Stereotyping everyone in Kansas as an Islamophobic white American is as progressive and accurate as portraying every Muslim person as a terrorist. Yet, you feel comfortable doing so.
  4. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
    Moves
    2120
    19 Apr '18 01:534 edits
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    Gee, I'm surprised a jury in Kansas, undoubtedly composed of a bunch of racist, Islamophobic white Americans, didn't triumphantly carry the defendants out on their shoulders to a hero's welcome rather than convicting them of charges which will probably put them away for the rest of their lives.
    First of all, I wrote nothing about people in Kansas, whether or not they are jurors.
    I criticized some Islamophobic writers here (none of whom I know to be in Kansas).
    Even No1Marauder has criticized some Islamophobic writers here when expedient
    (meaning when he's not trolling me or perhaps seeking their support to troll me).

    No1Marauder's (trolling) stereotyping shows his ignorance of Kansas's demographics.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas#Demographics
    "83.8% of the population was White American (77.5% non-Hispanic white)"

    Now IF a jury of 12 persons reflected Kansas's statewide demographics, then 10 of them
    would be white and 9 of them would be 'non-Hispanic white', not an all-white jury.
    (Non-white people may be disproportionately excluded from juries.)

    In contrast, the 'whitest' US states are in the Northeast, including Vermont (home of Bernie Sanders).
    http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=93608&page=1

    "According to the Census Bureau, Maine, Vermont and New Hampshire all have mostly
    white populations — in fact, at least 96 percent of the population of each state is white."

    Speaking of popular culture, Dorothy (in the Wizard of Oz) is one of the most famous
    characters from Kansas, and I doubt that she ever has been stereotyped as a hateful racist.

    No1Marauder could send his sarcastic racist 'congratulations' to the Louisiana jury that
    quickly acquitted a white man of killing an unarmed 16 year old Japanese student.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Yoshihiro_Hattori
    "The jury returned a not guilty verdict after deliberating for approximately three hours."

    This case was discussed in an earlier thread. Ash (a white South African) professed to be
    shocked by the white Americans here who apparently approved of killing the Japanese student.
    I regard Ash as naïve about the extent of American racism and gun violence.
  5. Subscriberno1marauder
    Humble and Kind
    In the Gazette
    Joined
    22 Jun '04
    Moves
    39965
    19 Apr '18 02:102 edits
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    First of all, I wrote nothing about people in Kansas, whether or not they are jurors.
    I criticized some Islamophobic writers here (none of whom I know to be in Kansas).
    Even No1Marauder has criticized some Islamophobic writers here when expedient
    (meaning when he's not trolling me or perhaps seeking their support to troll me).

    No1Marauder's (trolli ...[text shortened]... e Japanese student.
    I regard Ash as naïve about the extent of American racism and gun violence.
    I rarely criticize jury verdicts since the jury, unlike internet posters, sees all the evidence and receives extensive instructions from the judge on the relevant law. Assuming the jury was correctly instructed in the law, it is presumptuous to assume the verdict was wrong, nevermind based on nothing but racial prejudice.

    The case is also over a quarter century old.

    Here's a 2010 case involving a person from my hometown who was shot and killed in Buffalo, NY in a similar incident. https://dailygazette.com/article/2010/05/11/0511_teacher

    No charges were even filed.
  6. Subscriberno1marauder
    Humble and Kind
    In the Gazette
    Joined
    22 Jun '04
    Moves
    39965
    19 Apr '18 02:11
    Originally posted by @quackquack
    Stereotyping everyone in Kansas as an Islamophobic white American is as progressive and accurate as portraying every Muslim person as a terrorist. Yet, you feel comfortable doing so.
    I think most people are not as dumb as you and recognize the sarcasm in the post.
  7. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
    Moves
    2120
    19 Apr '18 02:19
    This case was the subject of this 2005 PBS documentary:
    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0771639/?ref_=fn_ep_tt_1

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massie_Trial

    In 1932 Hawaii (then a territory under US military occupation), Thalia Massie (a socially
    prominent white woman) falsely accused several non-white (Hawaiian or Asian) men of raping her.
    (A subsequent independent investigation by the Pinkerton Detective Agency concluded
    that it was practically impossible for the accused men to have done what the 'victim' alleged.)
    After a three week trial, the jury deadlocked, resulting in a mistrial.

    Grace Fortescue (Thalia Massie's mother) was unwilling to wait for another trial.
    She arranged for some of the accused men to be physically assaulted and one to be murdered.

    "The fact that the men had not been convicted of the alleged rape only proved to the mainland
    press that Hawaii itself was a hotbed of anti-white racial hatred, not that they were innocent.
    That Fortescue herself had actually admitted to the crime [murder] was insubstantial.
    Meanwhile, the tensions in Hawaii were ready to erupt into race riots."
    --Wikipedia

    The PBS documentary made it clear that extreme pressure (including threats) was applied
    to the jury to have them acquit the white defendants of murder. This may have influenced
    the jury to convict of manslaughter (which carried a mandatory sentence of ten years).

    "Territorial Governor Lawrence M. Judd commuted the 10-year sentences of the [white]
    convicted killers to one hour, to be served in his office."

    According to the PBS documentary, the pardoned killers quickly left Hawaii and were
    welcomed as heroes by other white people when they arrived in the mainland USA.
    The documentary concluded that Grace Fortescue, who enjoyed a long wealthy life,
    was a woman 'who got away with murder'.
  8. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
    Moves
    2120
    19 Apr '18 02:262 edits
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    I rarely criticize jury verdicts since the jury, unlike internet posters, sees all the evidence and receives extensive instructions from the judge on the relevant law. Assuming the jury was correctly instructed in the law, it is presumptuous to assume the verdict was wrong, nevermind based on nothing but racial prejudice.

    The case is also over a quar ...[text shortened]... ncident. https://dailygazette.com/article/2010/05/11/0511_teacher

    No charges were even filed.
    No1Marauder prefers to ignore my citing facts about Kansas's demographics.

    "I rarely criticize jury verdicts since the jury, unlike internet posters, sees all the evidence
    and receives extensive instructions from the judge on the relevant law. Assuming the jury
    was correctly instructed in the law, it is presumptuous to assume the verdict was wrong,
    never mind based on nothing but racial prejudice."
    --No1Marauder

    Would No1Marauder like to add his same smug words after every Southern case involving
    an all-white jury and a conflict of black vs white as defendant or victim (not necessarily in that order)?

    Did No1Marauder criticize George Zimmerman's acquittal by jury for killing Trayvon Martin?

    I already know that No1Maurauder's willfully blind (or unconcerned) to evidence of anti-Asian racism.
    (I don't claim that anti-Asian racism was the only motivating factor for this jury.)
    So No1Marauder might claim that there was much more anti-Asian racism in 1992 than today, though
    real Asian Americans regard that situation as more complex and nuanced than he could understand.
  9. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
    Moves
    2120
    19 Apr '18 02:39
    Originally posted by @no1marauder to Quackquack
    I think most people are not as dumb as you and recognize the sarcasm in the post.
    No1Marauder might be upset that I cited some facts about recent planned hateful violence
    by some white Americans against black African Muslim immigrants when most white Americans
    may prefer to pay minimal attention to this case.

    Contrary to No1Marauder's typical 'strawman', many white Americans prefer to ignore racism,
    even racist violence, without directly approving of such racist violence in a particular case.
  10. Subscriberno1marauder
    Humble and Kind
    In the Gazette
    Joined
    22 Jun '04
    Moves
    39965
    19 Apr '18 03:12
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    No1Marauder might be upset that I cited some facts about recent planned hateful violence
    by some white Americans against black African Muslim immigrants when most white Americans
    may prefer to pay minimal attention to this case.

    Contrary to No1Marauder's typical 'strawman', many white Americans prefer to ignore racism,
    even racist violence, without directly approving of such racist violence in a particular case.
    Your "every white person is a racist" diatribes have gotten very old. I seriously doubt many white people would condone blowing up an apartment building because immigrant Somalis lived there.
  11. Subscriberno1marauder
    Humble and Kind
    In the Gazette
    Joined
    22 Jun '04
    Moves
    39965
    19 Apr '18 03:18
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    No1Marauder prefers to ignore my citing facts about Kansas's demographics.

    "I rarely criticize jury verdicts since the jury, unlike internet posters, sees all the evidence
    and receives extensive instructions from the judge on the relevant law. Assuming the jury
    was correctly instructed in the law, it is presumptuous to assume the verdict was wrong, ...[text shortened]... real Asian Americans regard that situation as more complex and nuanced than he could understand.
    I stand by my comments which are in line with ideas I have expressed many times on this board regarding jury trials. The Zimmerman trial falls under the exception given; the judge's instructions (which I read) failed to cover important aspects of the law and her inadequate responses to jury questions during deliberations tainted the verdict.

    Your screeching about my non-existent bias against Asians is another tiresome joke only you seem to enjoy.
  12. Standard membersh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    New York
    Joined
    26 Dec '07
    Moves
    17585
    19 Apr '18 04:24
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    No1Marauder prefers to ignore my citing facts about Kansas's demographics.

    "I rarely criticize jury verdicts since the jury, unlike internet posters, sees all the evidence
    and receives extensive instructions from the judge on the relevant law. Assuming the jury
    was correctly instructed in the law, it is presumptuous to assume the verdict was wrong, ...[text shortened]... real Asian Americans regard that situation as more complex and nuanced than he could understand.
    No1 was actually quite careful NOT to blame the Zimmerman jury. As I recall, he blamed the judge for failing to properly answer their question about the standard of proof relevant to the manslaughter charge.
  13. Standard membersh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    New York
    Joined
    26 Dec '07
    Moves
    17585
    19 Apr '18 04:25
    Originally posted by @quackquack
    Stereotyping everyone in Kansas as an Islamophobic white American is as progressive and accurate as portraying every Muslim person as a terrorist. Yet, you feel comfortable doing so.
    Oh, dear. That’s an oops post.
  14. Zugzwang
    Joined
    08 Jun '07
    Moves
    2120
    19 Apr '18 04:59
    Originally posted by @no1marauder
    I stand by my comments which are in line with ideas I have expressed many times on this board regarding jury trials. The Zimmerman trial falls under the exception given; the judge's instructions (which I read) failed to cover important aspects of the law and her inadequate responses to jury questions during deliberations tainted the verdict.

    Your scr ...[text shortened]... ching about my non-existent bias against Asians is another tiresome joke only you seem to enjoy.
    No1Marauder always has refused to read what scholars of Asian American
    studies write about Asian Americans. No1Marauder prefers to believe
    that his own ignorant denials of anti -Asian racism must be true.
  15. Behind the scenes
    Joined
    27 Jun '16
    Moves
    1407
    19 Apr '18 07:054 edits
    Originally posted by @duchess64
    No1Marauder always has refused to read what scholars of Asian American
    studies write about Asian Americans. No1Marauder prefers to believe
    that his own ignorant denials of anti -Asian racism must be true.
    No1Marauder always has refused to read what scholars of Asian American studies write about Asian Americans.


    Duchess, it's highly unlikely that you have a detailed knowledge of what No1Marauder or any of the followers of this debates section have read or not read. In addition, if I had logged on to a website made up primarily of asian males and posted the same kind of hateful and abrasive things about them that you post here about white males, I would expect the same kind of responses that you are receiving here, so please stop acting as if you're an injured, innocent martyr - because you're not! 🙂
Back to Top