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  1. Standard memberLundos
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    17 Apr '17 06:21
    @KazetNagorra: You mentioned the below in another thread. I find this very interesting. Can you please elaborate?

    "Indeed, it is no surprise that universities in both the U.S. and the U.K. were so alarmed by Trump and Brexit respectively. Top academic institutions rely heavily on highly qualified immigrants from all over the globe, who are now seeking to apply elsewhere - e.g. in Germany, which is increasingly positioning itself as the global leader in scientific research and technological innovation."
    http://www.playtheimmortalgame.com/forum/debates/how-high-taxes-and-regulation-are-killing.172582/page-2#post_3725658

    Thanks.
  2. Cape Town
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    17 Apr '17 07:18
    When Trump implemented his first 'Muslim ban', I believe one of the court cases was brought by a university, or by a state prompted by a university.
    Most top universities get much of their income from foreign student, and they also get many of their post graduate students and lecturers from other countries. The top universities can essentially get the top brains from around the world. But Trump and Brexit make those two countries less desirable. Both events made those countries look racist in the eyes of the world and people will think twice before going there.
  3. SubscriberWajoma
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    17 Apr '17 07:271 edit
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    When Trump implemented his first 'Muslim ban', I believe one of the court cases was brought by a university, or by a state prompted by a university.
    Most top universities get much of their income from foreign student, and they also get many of their post graduate students and lecturers from other countries. The top universities can essentially get the to ...[text shortened]... e countries look racist in the eyes of the world and people will think twice before going there.
    Brexit is nothing to do with race and to be a muslim one can be of any race. So people who need to 'think twice' are not top brains and it's probably better if they just stay where they are.

    "...look racist in the eyes of the world..."

    A gross exaggeration, don't try to project your dream feelings onto everyone else.
  4. Germany
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    17 Apr '17 07:41
    Research staff at universities is highly international. In an early scientific career, typically one does several so-called "postdocs," temporary positions that are often abroad (I have one such position at the moment); in the highly specialized scientific world, there may only be a few or maybe a dozen research groups in the world interested in the topic you have expertise in. The U.S. is no different, so legions of foreign scientists from all over the globe are now working in U.S. research groups.

    If U.S. institutions cannot attract the most qualified candidates, then they will obviously suffer from this. Although the election of Trump has not directly (yet) had much influence on regulations with respect to getting a work permit for postdocs, there is a "soft" effect (of which I am aware of some anecdotal evidence) as well: Donald Trump's election is a crushing blow to U.S. reputation abroad and portrays the country as anti-immigrant, obscurantist, nativist and anti-intellectual. Hence, fewer candidates want to move to the U.S. Additional considerations are well-grounded fears that Donald Trump's administration will cut science and education funding.

    For the U.K. a similar story holds. Much of the science funding in the EU comes from EU-wide funds, and the U.K. benefits strongly from this particular arrangement as it hosts several of Europe's top institutions and research groups.

    Aside from German institutions, others which are likely to benefit are European universities elsewhere (primarily in the rest of Northern and Central Europe) and in particular Australian and Chinese institutions; the latter are becoming increasingly relevant. One thing that is holding back many prospective candidates is the language barrier - people may not be aware that only speaking English in a non-anglophone country may be less of a problem than they think. In Denmark for example one can easily manage without speaking a word of Danish. Trump and Brexit may encourage foreign researchers to investigate their options more thoroughly.
  5. Cape Town
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    17 Apr '17 07:48
    Originally posted by Wajoma
    Brexit is nothing to do with race ......
    It is fairly clear from the news, that immigration was one of the key issues. Immigration concerns are almost always about race.

    .. and to be a muslim one can be of any race.
    So you believe Brexit was about keeping Muslims out?

    "...look racist in the eyes of the world..."

    A gross exaggeration, don't try to project your dream feelings onto everyone else.

    Its not a exaggeration at all. It is a fact.
  6. SubscriberWajoma
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    17 Apr '17 07:59
    It is a fact.
    You win the internet.
  7. Cape Town
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    17 Apr '17 09:37
    Originally posted by Wajoma
    You win the internet.
    I usually do. Not surprising given that most of my opponents have nothing to back up their claims with other than sarcasm.
  8. Germany
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    17 Apr '17 09:48
    Originally posted by Wajoma
    Brexit is nothing to do with race and to be a muslim one can be of any race. So people who need to 'think twice' are not top brains and it's probably better if they just stay where they are.

    "...look racist in the eyes of the world..."

    A gross exaggeration, don't try to project your dream feelings onto everyone else.
    I am sure you can back up your statement that an insignificant amount of voters was swayed by "race"-related concerns in the Brexit referendum.
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    17 Apr '17 10:12
    Originally posted by Lundos
    @KazetNagorra: You mentioned the below in another thread. I find this very interesting. Can you please elaborate?

    "Indeed, it is no surprise that universities in both the U.S. and the U.K. were so alarmed by Trump and Brexit respectively. Top academic institutions rely heavily on highly qualified immigrants from all over the globe, who are now seeking to ...[text shortened]... om/forum/debates/how-high-taxes-and-regulation-are-killing.172582/page-2#post_3725658

    Thanks.
    God help us, we are all gonna die!
  10. Account suspended
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    17 Apr '17 10:18
    Can any of the academics comment on the benefits to society of learning about

    Women’s and Gender Studies and the so called Byonce degree (actually a course) offered by Rutgers University in New Jersey?

    The Jedi course (one day) offered by Belfast’s Queen’s University?

    Reed College of Portland and the University of California which offer an underwater basket weaving course?
  11. SubscriberWajoma
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    17 Apr '17 10:201 edit
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    I am sure you can back up your statement that an insignificant amount of voters was swayed by "race"-related concerns in the Brexit referendum.
    There are two components here, Trumps muslim ban, which was not a ban on Muslims. Apart from that the Islamic faith is a religion and has nothing to do with race. That's half of twitheads stupid statement blown out of the water.

    The other was his claim (which appears for a third time in this very short thread) that:

    "Both events made those countries look racist in the eyes of the world and people will think twice before going there."

    So it's twithead who needs something to back his statement, in the same way the god botherers need to define their imaginary friend. What does he mean by "the world" here? The world inside his head?

    I put it to you that outside of the UK Brexit doesn't mean that much to the average Joe and even less to those outside the EU. twithead made the claim, has he really got anything to back it?

    That 'the world' views the UK as racist.

    That 'the world' views the UK as being racist because in a narrow referendum they voted to leave the EU. Is that really all that being a member of the EU means i.e. that you're not racist? Or do you think there are other pro and cons to being a member of the EU?

    That's the other half of twitheads statement blown out of the water.
  12. Standard memberLundos
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    17 Apr '17 10:27
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Can any of the academics comment on the benefits to society of learning about

    Women’s and Gender Studies and the so called Byonce degree (actually a course) offered by Rutgers University in New Jersey?

    The Jedi course (one day) offered by Belfast’s Queen’s University?

    Reed College of Portland and the University of California which offer an underwater basket weaving course?
    I have no idea. Why don't you try contacting the universities providing these courses and ask them why they provide them? That's probably better than us guessing.
  13. Germany
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    17 Apr '17 10:31
    Originally posted by Wajoma
    There are two components here, Trumps muslim ban, which was not a ban on Muslims. Apart from that the Islamic faith is a religion and has nothing to do with race. That's half of twitheads stupid statement blown out of the water.

    The other was his claim (which appears for a third time in this very short thread) that:

    "[i]Both events made those countries ...[text shortened]... eing a member of the EU?

    That's the other half of twitheads statement blown out of the water.
    Here is your claim:

    Brexit is (sic) nothing to do with race [...]


    Can you back it up or not?
  14. Account suspended
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    17 Apr '17 10:313 edits
    Originally posted by Lundos
    I have no idea. Why don't you try contacting the universities providing these courses and ask them why they provide them? That's probably better than us guessing.
    I researched them online and have found no benefit thats why I am asking you to see if you know. Is this really the type of thing that you want funding for? Its difficult to argue against genuine scientific research but is it not true that what many universities offer is nothing much approaching scientific research and may infact be useless to society?
  15. Standard memberLundos
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    17 Apr '17 10:32
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Research staff at universities is highly international. In an early scientific career, typically one does several so-called "postdocs," temporary positions that are often abroad (I have one such position at the moment); in the highly specialized scientific world, there may only be a few or maybe a dozen research groups in the world interested in the top ...[text shortened]... Trump and Brexit may encourage foreign researchers to investigate their options more thoroughly.
    How soon would you estimate that such change would occur? I mean, if it's 'just' four years of Trump and given the amounts of investment needed for specialist such as yourself, it doesn't seem reasonable that the best would easily go somewhere else. Especially since it would also entail transfers for the professors among others.

    On the top of my head I would suggest that the UK is worse of, since the US is bigger (more money) and have far more Ivy League universities to offer and therefore 'must' be further advanced in many subjects.
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