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  1. Joined
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    25 Feb '17 08:02
    The Tories obliterated Labour in Copeland, which has been red for 80 years. This is the first time a governing party has won a by election for 35 years.

    It shows what a tragedy Jeremy Corbyn's leadership is for the party, and if this is anything to go by, labour is facing what happened to the Tories in 1997. Electoral annihilation.
  2. Standard memberfinnegan
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    25 Feb '17 10:291 edit
    Originally posted by Ashiitaka
    The Tories obliterated Labour in Copeland, which has been red for 80 years. This is the first time a governing party has won a by election for 35 years.

    It shows what a tragedy Jeremy Corbyn's leadership is for the party, and if this is anything to go by, labour is facing what happened to the Tories in 1997. Electoral annihilation.
    Typical misrepresentation. This was not a safe seat.

    Labour's problems are real enough, but given that Corbyn is undermined publicly by some 172 of the PLP and Blair is back in town with his £9m political fund, it is cheap to argue that Corbyn is the force making the party ineffective.

    New Labour is not a solution and not an opposition. Corbyn is the only politican enabling Labour to begin to oppose the neoliberal consensus that embraces right wing Labour as much as the Tories. He has to work with the limited pool of talent in a PLP that was handpicked by the party machine and has the charisma of a dumper truck. Even the candidate imposed on the Stoke party by the machine to replace his mate Tristram was an embarrasment. Still, he did speak up for unity and for Corbyn so I may misjudge him.

    https://www.facebook.com/NyeBevanNews/videos/1875224262691504/

    When you can pick out a different candiate to lead the party who is actually committed to resist privatisation, austerity and deregulation then maybe we can have a new leadership contest - meanwhile Corbyn is unbeatable within the party and the PLP is an embarrassment that must be addressed.

    Same process is happening in the US with the Democrats deciding how to move on from Clinton's disgraceful performance and put an end to the technique of triangulation by which supposedly left wing governemnt offers right wing policies. Before defeating the right, it is necessary to restore some effective leadership on the left. That is going to be bloody.

    Your insincere whimpering about the need for better opposition is politically nonsensical. Politics is tougher than that.
  3. Subscriberdivegeester
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    25 Feb '17 10:32
    Originally posted by finnegan
    Typical misrepresentation. This was not a safe seat.

    Labour's problems are real enough, but given that Corbyn is undermined publicly by some 172 of the PLP and Blair is back in town with his £9m political fund, it is cheap to argue that Corbyn is the force making the party ineffective.

    New Labour is not a solution and not an opposition. Corbyn is ...[text shortened]... about the need for better opposition is politically nonsensical. Politics is tougher than that.
    Which parts of the OP were "typical misrepresentation"?
  4. Joined
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    25 Feb '17 10:37
    Originally posted by finnegan
    Typical misrepresentation. This was not a safe seat.

    Labour's problems are real enough, but given that Corbyn is undermined publicly by some 172 of the PLP and Blair is back in town with his £9m political fund, it is cheap to argue that Corbyn is the force making the party ineffective.

    New Labour is not a solution and not an opposition. Corbyn is ...[text shortened]... about the need for better opposition is politically nonsensical. Politics is tougher than that.
    Do you honestly believe Labour can get back into power with Corbyn at the helm ?
    If that happens it will restore my faith in miracles .
  5. Standard memberfinnegan
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    25 Feb '17 10:41
    Originally posted by phil3000
    Do you honestly believe Labour can get back into power with Corbyn at the helm ?
    If that happens it will restore my faith in miracles .
    I am not sure - the evidence says no. What is your point? Do you honestly believe he has a rival for the leadership who can win?
  6. Germany
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    25 Feb '17 10:41
    You have to admire Corbyn's determination to lead Labour to another poll defeat.
  7. Joined
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    25 Feb '17 11:00
    Originally posted by finnegan
    I am not sure - the evidence says no. What is your point? Do you honestly believe he has a rival for the leadership who can win?
    At the moment, there is no candidate for a rival to his leadership and I cannot see one on the horizon either .
  8. Standard memberfinnegan
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    25 Feb '17 11:06
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    You have to admire Corbyn's determination to lead Labour to another poll defeat.
    Corbyn is not the issue. Real politics is not that puerile. The desire to discover a leader ( a fuhrer) to lead us out of the land of Babylon is infantile and dangerous. Corbyn is where he is because he has half a million supporters within the party and he expresses our priorities for the future. We are not so dense as to be unware that we are fighting against the ideology of our age. It is a fight that has to be taken on, not sidestepped.

    What you have to admire is the determination of Labour supporters to try and recover control of their party and to bring an end to the disastrous Third Way political nightmare which has seen the ruin of workers rights, the privatisaton of public assets, the marketisation of public services, the astonishing destabilisation of the financial system, the growth of monopoly power as large corporations wreck small business, the destruction of the middle class, the reconstruction of a plutocracy and the corruption of politics.
  9. Joined
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    25 Feb '17 11:08
    Originally posted by finnegan
    I am not sure - the evidence says no. What is your point? Do you honestly believe he has a rival for the leadership who can win?
    He could resign and not run again.
  10. Joined
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    25 Feb '17 11:10
    Originally posted by finnegan
    Corbyn is not the issue. Real politics is not that puerile. The desire to discover a leader ( a fuhrer) to lead us out of the land of Babylon is infantile and dangerous. Corbyn is where he is because he has half a million supporters within the party and he expresses our priorities for the future. We are not so dense as to be unware that we are fighting a ...[text shortened]... truction of the middle class, the reconstruction of a plutocracy and the corruption of politics.
    This is clearly not what people want, as shown not only by the by election but the polls.

    I don't know about anyone else, but the image of hapless Jeremy Corbyn in the prestigious position of British prime minister makes me let out a little giggle because of how silly it is.
  11. Standard memberfinnegan
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    25 Feb '17 11:183 edits
    Originally posted by Ashiitaka
    This is clearly not what people want, as shown not only by the by election but the polls.

    I don't know about anyone else, but the image of hapless Jeremy Corbyn in the prestigious position of British prime minister makes me let out a little giggle because of how silly it is.
    So should Labour campaign to give people what the Mail tells them to want or should it campaign to promote Labour values?

    Jeremy does not look hapless when I see him speaking in public nor indeed when he makes a mug out of May at PMQs. He is hugely loved.
  12. Joined
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    25 Feb '17 11:261 edit
    Originally posted by finnegan
    So should Labour campaign to give people what the Mail tells them to want or should it campaign to promote Labour values?

    Jeremy does not look hapless when I see him speaking in public nor indeed when he makes a mug out of May at PMQs. He is hugely loved.
    Jeremy has bungled so many PMQs I have lost count. His polls are the lowest in history. He lost a by election in (yes it was) a safe labour seat, even after post 2008 Tory austerity.

    His MPs rebelled against him in the article 50 vote and he was too weak to fire them.

    We still don't really know where he stands on brexit. 8 months later.

    If he is greatly loved why is he so unpopular? You make no sense.
  13. Germany
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    25 Feb '17 11:36
    Originally posted by finnegan
    Corbyn is not the issue. Real politics is not that puerile. The desire to discover a leader ( a fuhrer) to lead us out of the land of Babylon is infantile and dangerous. Corbyn is where he is because he has half a million supporters within the party and he expresses our priorities for the future. We are not so dense as to be unware that we are fighting a ...[text shortened]... truction of the middle class, the reconstruction of a plutocracy and the corruption of politics.
    shrug Under a Westminster system, the U.K. is not going to have a functional democracy regardless of who is leading Labour.
  14. Joined
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    25 Feb '17 11:42
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    shrug Under a Westminster system, the U.K. is not going to have a functional democracy regardless of who is leading Labour.
    The UK model is among the best in europe, but it needs some changes with regards to constituencies. The Tories are overrepresented and the lib dems and UKIP are underrepresented.
  15. Germany
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    25 Feb '17 11:45
    Originally posted by Ashiitaka
    The UK model is among the best in europe, but it needs some changes with regards to constituencies. The Tories are overrepresented and the lib dems and UKIP are underrepresented.
    It is among the worst in Europe. The best systems, of course, are multi-party democracies.

    The change with respect to constituencies is that they should be abolished.
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